Not wishing to hi-jack another thread I have decided to start one regarding the Hillsborough disaster which led to nearly 100 football fans losing their lives due to overcrowding. It now transpires that evidence had been tampered with by the police in order to deflect the blame onto Liverpool fans - a shameful episode in the history of disasters. My sympathies to the families and friends of those who needlessly lost their lives.

Following the Hillsborough disaster an enquiry was led by Lord Justice Taylor, which directly led to all seater stadiums and ticket allocations. Learning lessons from previous disasters is an overly used phrase, but thankfully we have learnt lessons from Hillsborough and there has not been a similar incident since.

96 people lost there liver through crowd miss-management, not over crowing, there is a massive difference - what followed was a utter disgrace to cover up the miss-management.

Ron - 'small group of senior officers' what about the other senior officers from West Midlands that reviewed this case? It took so long to come out because its rotten to the very top and I mean 'cabinet table' top - you cannot hide a cover up of that magnitude without ministers knowing the truth - everybody in Liverpool knew the truth from day one - Thatcher knew the next day - oh by the way the only record released of her visit to Hillsborough in the report is security arrangements to get her there and away from the ground. Must have had nothing to discuss eh?

For those thinking I'm just anti Tory - what about Jack Straw - can he look at himself in the mirror this morning?

You don’t need to go back to the Bradford Fire to understand what happen here -you need to go to the Miners Strike in 84 lies, lies and more dammed lies from that Tory Government.

Yes a rant but I have many friends there on that day and thank god they all came home.

For me the Bradford Fire was a very different matter altogether, as crowd control wasn't an issue.

What should have been notied is that a similar incident resulting in many injuries, no fatalities occured in 1981 with the semi final between Wolverhampton Wanderers and Tottenham Hotspur at Hillsborough.

The same gate was opened as people tried to get into the ground as people pushed to get through the turnstiles quickly and thankfully at the Leppings Lane end that day, they had no segregation / individual pens at the time, people could move outwards to the corners of the terracing, something that couldn't be done in 1989.

Most of us learn from our mistakes, I try to anyway, but it would appear those in 1981 didn't. Shame on all that were involved in 1981 and in 1989, you had been warned!

Lets seperate the Miner's strike from Hillsborough shall we?
Rants have their place -but do they serve any reeal use, especially when they degenerate into into politically motivated ones. Never discus politic or religion at work, it will only ever end badly (unless you're a politician or ordained priest or equivalent)

Many things were done wrong and some may be subject to criminal investigation - so best leave it at that. It was a tragedy and lessons have been and are still being learned from it.

Apologies, but what is the the connection between the Miner's strike and Hillsborough - I dont see why you see fit to introduce something that isn't connected.

Yes Police altered statements and lied ... ...
Yes Conservative Government in power at the time -- so what is the connection
Yes it all happened a long time ago and people have long memories - believe me I know people who always hated Churchill because of of the Tonypandy Riots - but what drew you to make the connection. Please enlighten me?
And I try to remember it is a public foreum so I try not to get into defamatory statements

I have downloaded yesterday's Report

http://www.official-docu...c1213/hc05/0581/0581.pdf

Its 389 pages long so it will take a little while to read through, rather than rely on the filter of the popular press and other media outlets.

I don't really think we should be discussing this topic on the forum but to answer the above point:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/new...south-yorkshire-19587118

Redken thanks for that - I disagree with your point though - one of the overriding facts in getting to the truth of Hillsborough was the internet - people taking and sharing knowledge of the facts - then putting pressure on the powers - you will or may recall it was an online petition of 100,000 which forced this to be brought to house.

Some things never change.
I read the report last night and was appalled at the actions of the police but moreso at the conduct of the Sun.
They have yet to apologise for their failure to investigate the fans side of the story. So far they have merely blamed the police.
This is the same tactic they still use to promote their own agenda, ignoring the facts to sell copy.
Thankfully the head of the Yorkshire police is recommending action be taken against the criminals who doctored evidence.
The strangest thing of all is that Mrs Thatcher visited the stadium and spoke with the police that day. The only record available was her schedule.

I've been to a cup semi at Hillsborough and was at that end of the ground. Didn't encounter any problems and it was same the Police force. There's no such thing as a bad road - only bad driving by those using it.

Yes their is a bad road - its about design (ergonomics) Are you saying a careful motorcyclist is to blame for hitting a pothole and coming off his bike!
The safety certificate question si in my opinion something that needs to be explored in Depth given that my understanding that the approval of the game undertaking is based on having one -being presented to the police and the officials and signing off so the match can go ahead.

The question is now are some ageing stadiums fit for purpose and should their be a lifespan on them.
As aBlackpool supporters Ive seen our stadium change over the years from the decrepid old stadium that used to be. For those who have been to both Wembleys I know which one I would choose to watch a game and it doesnt have 2 towers!

Yes the police made mistakes but the fans aren't blameless. They are shown on film climbing over walls. If only people would queue and wait their turn. South Yorkshire Police should not be getting this level of blame. My thoughts are with them also.

I think the past culture that lead to the erection of the fencing is to blame, if it was not for a violent minority the fencing that trapped those poor victims would not have been in place to cause the tragedy in the first place.
I remember the football violence back before the disaster, it was getting out of hand.

Crusader - I appreciate that for 23 year people could have taken your view, due to the lies - thats why they did it to cover it all up.

but are you actually being serious here?

Following an interesting debate with friends in the pub on Friday night, following the publication of the report, (1 x H&S Manager, 2 x senior police officers and a very left wing, anti-establishment friend), I have downloaded and read the report with interest. All 389 pages.

As has been widely reported in the media various organisations come out of it very badly :-

South Yorkshire Police – poor planning, poor policing on the day, poor communication, poor decisions made and then the cover up.

South Yorkshire Metropolitan Ambulance Service – failing to initiate the major disaster procedures, poor/lack of management.

Sheffield Wednesday FC – poor stewarding, unsuitable stadium, ground not complying with Green Guide, capacities of terraces incorrectly calculated, out of date safety certificate, (certificate was over 10 years old and had not been updated following significant changes to the ground, specifically the Leppings Lane terrace).

The Consultant Engineers – who issued a report disregarding the stadium’s failure to meet the requirements of the Green Guide.

Sheffield City Council – failing to issue a current safety certificate, the quality of safety inspections and the lack of documentation of safety inspections.

But having read it, I find 2 things strange, unless I have missed something.

Firstly the FA do not come in for any real criticism or blame. I find this strange as they were the organisation staging the event and had effectively hired the venue for the day. Surely the FA had a duty of care to ensure that the organisations that they were contracting were suitable ? After all that’s what happens when a company hires contractors as has been discussed widely in other topics on this forum.

Secondly, its to do with whether there were ticketless Liverpool fans. While it has been widely reported that the report vindicates the fans, the report contains great detail disproving various allegations concerning the fans behaviour, but I can’t find in the report clear evidence that there were no ticketless fans.

I believe that the report should have gone deeper, to clearly resolve this point. The capacity of the terrace was 10,100 and the only reference to the number on it is in the HSE report which estimates 10,124, but from the report, there were still fans in the tunnel leading under the stand onto the terrace.

I am just surprised that the report makes no real reference to the number of fans on the terrace at the time of the incident other than various estimates within pens 3 and 4. Surely this could have easily be done from CCTV and TV footage ?

Because the report has not fully addressed this issue, you are still going to get comments like many above, who will continue to question the fans involvement, despite the publication of this report.

If there were ticketless fans on that terrace on that afternoon, then they are just as compliant in what happened as the police officers who were involved in the cover up.

Shown on film climbing over walls?

Well done, you do realise those 'fans not blameless climbing over walls' into the ground were actually being seriously crushed outside between the decrepid turnstyles and the outer perimeter gates which led from Leppings Lane itself as this was a very restricted area and the police decided to not close the gates off from the road itself. Would you rather they just died outside as well or maybe they'd like to actually get out of the massive crush outside and were climbing over walls of the ground and over the railings as well which didn't lead into the ground but back into the road etc...

Also, well done for surviving that end. A crush also happened in 1988 when the police actually did a half decent job.

You do also know that in 1981 there was a serious crush of spurs fans at that end which almost resulted in deaths but thankfully only injuries. Luckily for the spurs fans the pens as were in 88 and 89 were not the same, they were actually able to move sideways across the terracing into less poplulated areas. Unlike in 88 and 89 when if you were getting crushed you had nowhere to go.

Honestly, if you don't have a clue what you are talking about don't talk about it and get the wrong end of the stick.

And the tapes from the CCTV room went missing...it would have shown what the Police could see in those two pens.

IOSH Merseyside Branch are running an event on Friday the 14th of December at Liverpool Cricket Ground - Steve Rotherham is a guest speaker who will be sharing his experiences of Hillsborough.