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Allen29883  
#1 Posted : 28 September 2012 15:07:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Allen29883

HSE announce the start of the Fee for Intervention policy from Monday http://www.hse.gov.uk/pr...?ebul=ffi&cr=4/sep12 however I am still confused as to how/or if, this applies to local authority enforced sectors as it just talks about HSE. Are LA's included or not?

Maybe having an end of the week moment but if someone could clear this up for me that would be great.

Thanks

Mark
NickH  
#2 Posted : 28 September 2012 15:13:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
NickH

There is scope within the regulations to include local authority EHO's. However, any rollout to include them was supposed to be as a result of further consultation. I don't think this has happened yet - maybe they're waiting to see how it works with HSE inspectors first?
potts2030  
#3 Posted : 28 September 2012 15:14:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
potts2030

My understanding is that it is only the HSE that can charge under FFI
Jake  
#4 Posted : 28 September 2012 15:17:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

LA's are not included.

They may be in the future, though there will be alot of resistance to this (it would be very very difficult for LAs to achieve consistency throughout the UK, hence the reason for Primary Authorities).

There is a whole load of other issue relating to LA enforcement officer competence as (unlike the HSE) there are mydiad levels of qulaification and experience etc. amongst LA Environmental Health departments(not all enforcers are EHOs, some have limited qualificatiosn but still warranted powers etc.).
ScottB  
#5 Posted : 28 September 2012 15:20:11(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ScottB

For food businesses in particular it would be even more difficult for local authority EH enforcers to calculate the fee accurately, as it is not uncommon for food safety/hygiene and H&S inspections to be combined and done by the same inspector during the same visit.

Scott
NickH  
#6 Posted : 28 September 2012 15:25:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
NickH

Actually, I stand corrected. The Explanatory Memorandum states the following:

8.3 A significant number of responses, including a number from local
authorities themselves, strongly recommended that local authorities be
excluded from the fee for intervention provisions. As a result, the new
provisions do not provide for local authorities (or any other body other than
HSE on which functions are conferred by health and safety law) to recover
their costs through fee for intervention.

I think it was within the consultation document that it probably stated tohat there would potentially be scope to extend to LA EHO's.
Jake  
#7 Posted : 28 September 2012 15:28:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

ScottB wrote:
For food businesses in particular it would be even more difficult for local authority EH enforcers to calculate the fee accurately, as it is not uncommon for food safety/hygiene and H&S inspections to be combined and done by the same inspector during the same visit.

Scott


Yes and no. Lots of food business (and some food retailers) would be risked as "low risk" for H&S, I'm talking risk class that used to come out at a proactive inspection every 1 to 2 years. Since the recent changes post Loftstedt, LA's have been directed to only focus proactive inspections on "high risk" H&S businesses, so essentially we will now never receive a proactive H&S inspection!

The result of this is that the previous combined FS / H&S inspection has now dropped to FS only. Therefore the issue you mention, whilst valid, may not actually apply to many thousands of businesses

But agreed that the whole inspection regime is "messy" and would be very difficult to manage.
ScottB  
#8 Posted : 28 September 2012 15:35:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ScottB

I see, Jake.

What about where a local authority inspector qualified and authorised for both FS and H&S enforcement is inspecting for FS when he/she sees a/some glaring breach of H&S legislation?

Scott
Jake  
#9 Posted : 28 September 2012 17:48:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

ScottB wrote:
I see, Jake.

What about where a local authority inspector qualified and authorised for both FS and H&S enforcement is inspecting for FS when he/she sees a/some glaring breach of H&S legislation?

Scott


We've never had this, but we are low risk! From my (very limited) time in an Environmental Health department, if there was something glaringly wrong it would be followed probably by a separate person.

From what I gather, speaking with our Primary Authority, is that this won't happen a whole lot, those EHO's warranted for both have been posted to different areas (i.e. moved into the section dealing with only H&S and that will be proactive inspections in high risk business and reactive in all businesses), essentially the department splitting. This may not be the case for smaller LAs, however (I'm in London).

So essentially, I expect there will be a reduction of dual warranted officers conducting the FS inspections in the first place (for obvious reasons it's easier / cheaper for a LA to hire / train / maintain officers warranted just for FS than it would for FS and H&S), and within the proactive team FS would greatly outweigh H&S in the typical borough.
davidjohn#1  
#10 Posted : 28 September 2012 21:56:47(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
davidjohn#1

Although LA'S wont be charging the FFI to those dutyholders premises that are under LA control, I 'm assuming that if the HSE were to inspect because of a failing that would mean they may come in then a charge still may be applicable?
A Kurdziel  
#11 Posted : 01 October 2012 10:35:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Quote/ We've never had this, but we are low risk! From my (very limited) time in an Environmental Health department, if there was something glaringly wrong it would be followed probably by a separate person. /end Quote
So a qualified H&S inspector might see something glaringly wrong and not do anything about it such as issue a prohibition notice. Instead they would go back to the office and mention it and then somebody might come along and check it out. Meanwhile some gets injured, because they slipped on the floor and their hand fell into the deep fat fryer, or electrocuted with the faulty Panini toaster.
The mind boggles.
Pinks  
#12 Posted : 02 October 2012 13:44:08(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Pinks

LAs are not part of FFI

Enforcing Authorities are directed that routine / programmed inspections are only carried out at the highest risk premises.

Low risk premises may still be visited if there were a complaint or RIDDOR report or may be subject to other types of intervention e.g educative initiatives

LAs have been advised for some time not to combine Food and H&S inspections ie to do H&S inspection just because the officer was there carrying out a food inspection ( unless the H&S inspection was due ). This was not considered appropriate - unnecessary extra burden on business.

this does not mean H&S matters of evident concern spotted during a visit for another reason could not or would not be dealt with. e.g an electrical appliance found in dangerous condition . If the officer that saw it was authorised for H&S then I would expect they may deal with it themselves. As Jake is Ithink suggesting officers doing food safety work are not necessarily authorised H&S inspectors as was more common place in the past- so if they spot something that they think looks wrong - they may have to refer it to someone else to investigate.
Allen29883  
#13 Posted : 02 October 2012 15:35:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Allen29883

Many thanks to you all for clearing that up. Could create an issue, especially if a business has an LA enforced low risk office in one area & a HSE enforced higher risk premises in another?

Be interesting to see how this one pans out........

Mark
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