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alfi  
#1 Posted : 04 October 2012 15:03:52(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
alfi

Hi, scratching my head on this one; a large lake on a private office complex has removed all its life flotation rings because they keep getting thrown into the lake by local children.the lake is not fenced off but on private land but can be accessed by locals. The area would be covered by the Occupiers liability Act. Signs are in place warning "no swimming" and its private. the lake is deep and is used by employees to sit by at a lunch time etc. Has anyone had similiar experence or know of any case law i can revert too?.i know children will just ignore signs and should the worst happen and no flotation rings are available would the liablitly fall on the landlowner under the said act Comments welcome
PH2  
#2 Posted : 04 October 2012 15:14:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PH2

Hi Alfi, I recommend that you download a copy of the Environment Agency booklet "Guide to public Safety on Flood and Coastal Risk Management Sites". It is an excellent publication regarding public safety around a wide range of water scenarios, and will address your query. In particular it provides a very good Article on the Tomlinson V Congleton Borough Council.
alfi  
#3 Posted : 04 October 2012 15:44:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
alfi

cheers for thats :)
Mr Insurance  
#4 Posted : 08 October 2012 17:10:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr Insurance

It's probably never going to happen, but if the Police dont have anything else to go on, the kids could be prosecuted under Section 8 of HASAW for "intentionally or recklessly interfering with or misusing anything provided in the interests of health, safety and welfare". Does anybody know if there has ever been an instance of a Section 8 charge, if for example, somebody squirted a colleague with a fire extinguisher in a workplace prank?
Alex Whittle  
#5 Posted : 08 October 2012 19:18:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Alex Whittle

I doubt if the offenders would be prosecuted under s.8 as they are not employees. However, criminal damage may be the charges brought against the culprits. As for the second part, yes I am aware of charges being brought against an 'employee' discharging an extinguisher as a prank.
RayRapp  
#6 Posted : 08 October 2012 19:58:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Alex you beat me to it. I would also add that s8 is only likely to apply to an employee and certainly not children. I have seen life buoys in the middle of a lake as opposed to the perimeter, presumably to prevent unauthorised access to them - have you considered this? Might be better than to remove them altogether, although it does depend to some extent the depth and size of the lake. The case that springs to mind is Tomlinson v Congleton Borough Council [2003] where a 18 year old youth broke his neck and became a tretraplegic when diving in shallow water belonging to the Council pursuant to the OLA. The case was dismissed on the grounds that he was not a visitor but a trespasser and the Council had taken reasonable precautions to prevent people from entering the lake including signage. There is also the case of children trespassing on a railway line by gaining access through a hole in the fence. Cannot recall the citation but in this case the railway company were judged to have been negligent under the OLA, because there is a higher duty of care owed to children than adults. Even trespassers have rights if there is a danger to them which they are unaware.
sadlass  
#7 Posted : 08 October 2012 20:20:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
sadlass

S8 applies to 'any person' not just those in an employment situation. However, I have never seen any publicised case I can recall - just an empty theoretical threat. The police do not have enforcement powers under HSW, although they can deal with anti-social / trespass issues etc. It's always tricky to 'retract' a visible safety precaution, even if it turns out that it was an unnecessary idea in the first place, whatever the reason for reconsideration. We do not know enough about the scenario / risk level to comment further than has already been given (all good). Not sure why you are asking Alfi - are you advising the 'owner company'?
peter gotch  
#8 Posted : 09 October 2012 13:21:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

The case which Ray refers to is British Railways Board v Herrington [1972] AC 877 House of Lords A "duty of common humanity towards trespassers" BRB had been aware of a gap in a fence for several months, but had done nothing about it.
peter gotch  
#9 Posted : 09 October 2012 13:22:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

The case which Ray refers to is British Railways Board v Herrington [1972] AC 877 House of Lords A "duty of common humanity towards trespassers" BRB had been aware of a gap in a fence for several months, but had done nothing about it.
Invictus  
#10 Posted : 09 October 2012 15:29:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Sadlass your right it is not restricted to employees and can apply to visitors, etc.
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 09 October 2012 20:04:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I wrote: '...s8 is only likely to apply to an employee and certainly not children'. Not, ...s8 only applies to an employee.
Invictus  
#12 Posted : 10 October 2012 07:44:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Ray, as s8 applies also to burglars, I gather ot would also apply to tresspassers, your probably right about children, but would this not depend on the age of the children? When people say children I automatically think under 10, but it could be up to under 18.
colinreeves  
#13 Posted : 10 October 2012 13:41:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

RayRapp wrote:
I wrote: '...s8 is only likely to apply to an employee and certainly not children'. Not, ...s8 only applies to an employee.
not sure. The wording is "8 Duty not to interfere with or misuse things provided pursuant to certain provisions No person shall intentionally or recklessly interfere with or misuse anything provided in the interests of health, safety or welfare in pursuance of any of the relevant statutory provisions." Surely this implies ALL persons, not just employees?
Lisa Boulton  
#14 Posted : 10 October 2012 14:35:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lisa Boulton

Rasput 1 posted a similar enquiry in August titled 'Life Saving Devices an a Public River', that raised a number of interesting points, it is probably worth having a look at that post as well. http://forum.iosh.co.uk/...spx?g=posts&t=106084 Regards Lisa
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