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DaisyMaisy  
#1 Posted : 11 October 2012 16:44:27(UTC)
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DaisyMaisy

In your opinion, when would be the best time to carry out fire risk assessment in the situation when brand new showrooms are opened? When everything installed, completed and before opening, or once opened and records are in hand such as alarm tests, induction, evacuation procedures, emergency lighting tests etc, your input appreciated - in my opinion it would be before opening but assessors have said best about 6 weeks after so they have records and systems to check.
Jane Blunt  
#2 Posted : 11 October 2012 16:50:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

I would say both. the first to record the engineering measures, signage etc and the proposed functioning.

Then again later to start fleshing the system out with records.
roshqse  
#3 Posted : 11 October 2012 16:53:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
roshqse

The point of the Fire RA is to establish the controls and measures you require for the site.

So how can they expect you to decide what lighting, extinguishers, alarms etc, you need without doing a Fire RA??

What assessors have said "after the showroom is established"?
Doesn't make any sense to me!

What they are suggesting is an Audit surely, not a Risk Assessment to establish what you need to have.. for the audit!
(Chicken.. egg?)
DP  
#4 Posted : 11 October 2012 17:00:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
DP

You need to consider the arrangements around factors during the development of the store - how new stores work for me is - during construction, the contractor have this responsibility - when we take over (hand over) we do one - when we commence we trade its reviewed taking into consideration new factors such as the public.
roshqse  
#5 Posted : 11 October 2012 17:04:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
roshqse

What he said!

It's an ongoing thing. As the situation changes, the RA should be updated (after significant events, accidents, changes, time limited etc etc..) thereby providing information for you to change your arrangements to suit the new situation.

Records being checked doesn't make the place safe, people make the place safe. (or not! lol)
DaisyMaisy  
#6 Posted : 11 October 2012 17:20:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DaisyMaisy

thanks all for your replies - all useful !
m  
#7 Posted : 11 October 2012 17:25:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
m

When it is a new site I do the FRA as soon as I get sight of the drawings. Then you can revise as the build progresses to completion.
teh_boy  
#8 Posted : 11 October 2012 17:36:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

This is a classic example of where safety gets a bad name.
I have been asked so many times to do retrospective risk assessments. When the engineers are back in ripping down all the nice shiny new walls, installing extra bits and sending the project way over budget, and way past completion...

Who gets the blame?

I do :)

So I concur with all the above - even HSG65 says we should RA inputs, and that's without even picking up CDM!
David Bannister  
#9 Posted : 11 October 2012 18:05:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Very topical post for me as I have just been instructed to carry out a FRA on a retail operation and it's suggested that I do the site visit on the day prior to opening!

In this instance I am relaxed about that as the retailers in question generally manage to get it right at design stage.
Jake  
#10 Posted : 12 October 2012 08:28:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

david bannister wrote:
Very topical post for me as I have just been instructed to carry out a FRA on a retail operation and it's suggested that I do the site visit on the day prior to opening!


But this is probably quite a logical time to carryout the assessment.

I'd assume that the responsibility for designing and installing fire safety equipment and systems within new stores will be contracted out to competent professionals that will have their own FRA process to ensure the systems and equipment installed are suitable.

There does not seem to me, in the above scenario, much point in trying to carryout your own FRA for these provisions, as it's being done for you (at contractor appointment stage you would assume the competence to identify the correct type / number / location of detectors etc. etc. has been checked by the client). Moreover, (in my experience), fire alarm / emergency lighting etc. is installed at the latter stages of the fit-out, so maybe 1 day prior to opening is the first instance that everything will be in place!

Of course you want to check that what's installed is what was planned to be installed, but carrying out your on FRA before it is actually installed may not make sense in some scenarios.

For non-retail builds it may well be different, but I certainly don't think such a situation gives safety "a bad name".
Rob M  
#11 Posted : 12 October 2012 09:09:21(UTC)
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Rob M

This can be done during the planning stage as you will know whats going in and what the facility will look like on completion.
MEden380  
#12 Posted : 12 October 2012 09:49:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MEden380

As this appears to be a new build reference should be made to Building Regulations Approved Document B Volume 2 Appendix G "Fire safety information"
The designer should have produce a fire strategy for the project and provided the duty holder with the information to produce a fire risk assessment. This information would normally be available in the Building Health & Safety File that is handed over to the occupier on completion.
As mentioned by previous threads this should have been considered during the design stage - if not the CDM C has not been doing their job.
In theory a new build fire risk assessment should be quite slim as it meets current Building Regulations and is safe to operate - said with tongue in cheek.
DaisyMaisy  
#13 Posted : 12 October 2012 09:55:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DaisyMaisy

thanks all - great references by all! very helpful as always.
Lisa Boulton  
#14 Posted : 12 October 2012 09:57:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Lisa Boulton

The requirement to carry out an FRA is in a place of work, and the showroom is a place of work now and not just 6 weeks after it opens. The contractor is likely to have arrangements in place for their employees but you should put in place arrangements for fire safety once it is taken over for your use, which is going to be before it opens.

The FSO requires you to take general fire precautions and apply principles of prevention and not just an FRA.

I suppose ask yourself what will staff and visitors do if there is a fire or alarms sounding in the first 6 weeks, will staff know what to do, how to evacuate, where to go, how to clear the site, call for help.
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