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dbs  
#1 Posted : 17 October 2012 11:43:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
dbs

Good morning

Does the team think:

The employer is responsible for maintenance and inspections of DSE which is owned by the employee but being used to "work from home"

(DSE Assessment is a given)
decimomal  
#2 Posted : 17 October 2012 12:46:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
decimomal

Going on the scenario presented I would say no.

However; is the employee choosing to work from home with their own equipment or is the employer directing that they work from home? If the latter I would expect the employer to provide the relevant I.T. etc which would then be classed as work equipment and therfore liable to be maintained.
A Kurdziel  
#3 Posted : 17 October 2012 12:49:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Good Question.
No right answer I think, as there is no precedent.
There was a case up here (North Yorkshire) where an examiner working from home for an examination board (not NEBOSH!) had a laptop catch fire and burn down their cottage. She sued the board but that was a machine supplied by the board.
dbs  
#4 Posted : 17 October 2012 12:59:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
dbs

Thanks for the replies so far.
To amplify:
We have a system for remote access for the masses. (900 DSE Users)
There are two possible scenarios
1.Homeworker: Does not have desk on site works from home for the majority of time
a. Uses own equipment
b. Uses company supplied equipment (WYSE) terminal
2.Flexible worker who works from home (or anywhere else) ad-hoc
a. Uses own equipment
dbs  
#5 Posted : 17 October 2012 13:31:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
dbs

To pick up on the point you raised Decimomal.

Initially Employees would apply to work from home and become "homeworkers" they would also gain permission from Line Managers to work from home ad-hoc.

It is possible that in future they would only employ someone who could work from home.

Do you think that might be relevant?
Ron Hunter  
#6 Posted : 17 October 2012 13:45:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

From PUWER:

"work equipment" means any machinery, appliance, apparatus, tool or
installation for use at work (whether exclusively or not)"

So the answer is yes. In relative terms though, where's the risk?

A similar context arises where home carers support people in their own homes using lifting aids belonging to the Client. The employer has to ensure the equipment is safe and without risk to his employee or the client.
chids76  
#7 Posted : 17 October 2012 13:47:24(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
chids76

Hi dbs,

Taken from the first paragraph of indg 226, as far as 'homeworkers' go....... 'of the work equipment used at home, you are only responsible for the equipment you supply'.
A Kurdziel  
#8 Posted : 17 October 2012 13:48:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Having thought about this- if the employee is expected to work from home but does not have any IT equipment of their own, what happens then?
Also who owns any data on the laptop- the user or the employer? And if it is the employer, how do they intend to get it off the employees machine.
What I am getting at is why the IT equipment employee owned is?
I work for government and we supply all of our home workers with secure laptops, which are not for personal use. Any thing on the machines belongs to the employer, which of course means that we become responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of the machines.
Is expecting employees to use their own laptops for work related activities common outside government?
Irwin43241  
#9 Posted : 17 October 2012 13:53:44(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

dbs wrote:
To pick up on the point you raised Decimomal.

Initially Employees would apply to work from home and become "homeworkers" they would also gain permission from Line Managers to work from home ad-hoc.

It is possible that in future they would only employ someone who could work from home.

Do you think that might be relevant?


Think about the fact that wether or not they are working from home or homeworkers they still remain employees and therefore the employer has a Duty of Care for their Health and Safety. Their home would be deemed as their workplace and therefore, as minimum, the employer should complete a risk assessment around the home working arrangements / environment etc. being suitable and sufficient. This would include DSE assessment.
dbs  
#10 Posted : 17 October 2012 14:12:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
dbs

A Kurdziel wrote:
Having thought about this- if the employee is expected to work from home but does not have any IT equipment of their own, what happens then?
Also who owns any data on the laptop- the user or the employer? And if it is the employer, how do they intend to get it off the employees machine.
What I am getting at is why the IT equipment employee owned is?
I work for government and we supply all of our home workers with secure laptops, which are not for personal use. Any thing on the machines belongs to the employer, which of course means that we become responsible for the upkeep and maintenance of the machines.
Is expecting employees to use their own laptops for work related activities common outside government?


Hello, thank you for giving it some thought.

The employee will apply to be a Homeworker. We will probably supply them with a WYSE Terminal (This replaces the electronics inside the base unit of a pc. It is about 7"x5") There is still a mouse, keyboard and screen. Laptops will only be available to a few select individuals. (I am avoiding the risk of straying into the whys and wherefores of Tablets and Smartphones)

If they are Working from home ad-hoc then they can have "remote access" to the networks using their own equipment. An example might be that they are waiting in for the repair man. They can only do that if they have their own equipment.

I am sorry if I am confusing the issue. I have a remarkable ability to do that.
dbs  
#11 Posted : 17 October 2012 14:21:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
dbs

Irwin43241 wrote:
dbs wrote:
To pick up on the point you raised Decimomal.

Initially Employees would apply to work from home and become "homeworkers" they would also gain permission from Line Managers to work from home ad-hoc.

It is possible that in future they would only employ someone who could work from home.

Do you think that might be relevant?


Think about the fact that wether or not they are working from home or homeworkers they still remain employees and therefore the employer has a Duty of Care for their Health and Safety. Their home would be deemed as their workplace and therefore, as minimum, the employer should complete a risk assessment around the home working arrangements / environment etc. being suitable and sufficient. This would include DSE assessment.


Thank you for taking the time to reply.

This is where my question arose. I am in the process of preparing control measures to the Risk Assessment. I realise that whether they are homeworkers or working from home ad-hoc they are still employees carrying out work. Which inevitably leads to the equipment which becomes Work Equipment and therefore subject to PUWER which raises the question of responsiblity for that equipment. If you start to consider their home as a workplace where do you stop.
Irwin43241  
#12 Posted : 17 October 2012 14:26:10(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

dbs wrote:
Irwin43241 wrote:
dbs wrote:
To pick up on the point you raised Decimomal.

Initially Employees would apply to work from home and become "homeworkers" they would also gain permission from Line Managers to work from home ad-hoc.

It is possible that in future they would only employ someone who could work from home.

Do you think that might be relevant?


Think about the fact that wether or not they are working from home or homeworkers they still remain employees and therefore the employer has a Duty of Care for their Health and Safety. Their home would be deemed as their workplace and therefore, as minimum, the employer should complete a risk assessment around the home working arrangements / environment etc. being suitable and sufficient. This would include DSE assessment.


Thank you for taking the time to reply.

This is where my question arose. I am in the process of preparing control measures to the Risk Assessment. I realise that whether they are homeworkers or working from home ad-hoc they are still employees carrying out work. Which inevitably leads to the equipment which becomes Work Equipment and therefore subject to PUWER which raises the question of responsiblity for that equipment. If you start to consider their home as a workplace where do you stop.


The employer is the controlling factor in these arrangements and therefore party to the arrangements. There is no getting away from it.
dbs  
#13 Posted : 18 October 2012 10:18:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
dbs

Thank you all for your replies.

I thought I would push my luck and simplify my question

I think I am correct that under PUWER, if you have an employee and the employee uses their own tools to work for their employer then the employer assumes responsibility for the safety, inspection and maintenance of those tools and equipment.

Would this then apply to an employee’s personal computer? Assuming they are at home using the PC to complete their normal company duties as a DSE User.

DSE Assessment is a given. It is the issue of the PC as Work Equipment I am interested in your opinions.

PS I realise this is not cutting edge manufacturing and the Risk may be considered insignificant by some but I need to provide a reccomendation and would appreciate my fellow professional's thoughts.
David Bannister  
#14 Posted : 18 October 2012 10:36:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

In terms of H&S, what maintenance & inspection needs to be done to a PC or laptop? How is the equipment going to cause harm? Is the employee able to understand and act on simple instruction?

Answer these and you may just happen upon the answers to the original and follow-up questions.
Irwin43241  
#15 Posted : 18 October 2012 10:57:24(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

dbs wrote:
Thank you all for your replies.

I thought I would push my luck and simplify my question

I think I am correct that under PUWER, if you have an employee and the employee uses their own tools to work for their employer then the employer assumes responsibility for the safety, inspection and maintenance of those tools and equipment.

Would this then apply to an employee’s personal computer? Assuming they are at home using the PC to complete their normal company duties as a DSE User.

DSE Assessment is a given. It is the issue of the PC as Work Equipment I am interested in your opinions.

PS I realise this is not cutting edge manufacturing and the Risk may be considered insignificant by some but I need to provide a reccomendation and would appreciate my fellow professional's thoughts.


It is acceptable for staff to use their own computer for home working and as such should be compensated in some form which could include maintenance costs etc. There are other areas to consider as staff will be connected / logged into the organisations network and this presents issues so I would advise consult with your IT Department for advice as regards staff using their own personal computing resources. The IT Department may want to be satisfied that the personal computing resources are configuired correctly and that no unaccepotable information goverance / security risk exist.
dbs  
#16 Posted : 18 October 2012 12:13:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
dbs

Irwin43241 wrote:
dbs wrote:
Thank you all for your replies.

I thought I would push my luck and simplify my question

I think I am correct that under PUWER, if you have an employee and the employee uses their own tools to work for their employer then the employer assumes responsibility for the safety, inspection and maintenance of those tools and equipment.

Would this then apply to an employee’s personal computer? Assuming they are at home using the PC to complete their normal company duties as a DSE User.

DSE Assessment is a given. It is the issue of the PC as Work Equipment I am interested in your opinions.

PS I realise this is not cutting edge manufacturing and the Risk may be considered insignificant by some but I need to provide a reccomendation and would appreciate my fellow professional's thoughts.


It is acceptable for staff to use their own computer for home working and as such should be compensated in some form which could include maintenance costs etc. There are other areas to consider as staff will be connected / logged into the organisations network and this presents issues so I would advise consult with your IT Department for advice as regards staff using their own personal computing resources. The IT Department may want to be satisfied that the personal computing resources are configuired correctly and that no unaccepotable information goverance / security risk exist.


Hi Irwin

All the IT Security issues you raised have been resolved.

I anticipate that rather than have another work PC they would choose to utilise their own. If their own is a nice new top of the range latest model the risk is lower than a second hand PC with a dodgy earth connection on the old CRT Screen. A previous contributer remembered a case where a company laptop was responsible for a fire in the employees house.
Irwin43241  
#17 Posted : 18 October 2012 13:37:41(UTC)
Rank: Guest
Guest

dbs wrote:
Irwin43241 wrote:
dbs wrote:
Thank you all for your replies.

I thought I would push my luck and simplify my question

I think I am correct that under PUWER, if you have an employee and the employee uses their own tools to work for their employer then the employer assumes responsibility for the safety, inspection and maintenance of those tools and equipment.

Would this then apply to an employee’s personal computer? Assuming they are at home using the PC to complete their normal company duties as a DSE User.

DSE Assessment is a given. It is the issue of the PC as Work Equipment I am interested in your opinions.

PS I realise this is not cutting edge manufacturing and the Risk may be considered insignificant by some but I need to provide a reccomendation and would appreciate my fellow professional's thoughts.


It is acceptable for staff to use their own computer for home working and as such should be compensated in some form which could include maintenance costs etc. There are other areas to consider as staff will be connected / logged into the organisations network and this presents issues so I would advise consult with your IT Department for advice as regards staff using their own personal computing resources. The IT Department may want to be satisfied that the personal computing resources are configuired correctly and that no unaccepotable information goverance / security risk exist.


Hi Irwin

All the IT Security issues you raised have been resolved.

I anticipate that rather than have another work PC they would choose to utilise their own. If their own is a nice new top of the range latest model the risk is lower than a second hand PC with a dodgy earth connection on the old CRT Screen. A previous contributer remembered a case where a company laptop was responsible for a fire in the employees house.


In my opinion, the most appropriate action is for your organisation to supply all homeworkers with company equipment. I think this would be in the best interests of the employees but also your organisation.
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