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My intention was not to offend HR professionals because that’s what they are professional, so I apologise. I have only read the first few responses and gave a view based on my past experiences with HR, I just wish they could provide more constructive assistance sometimes that’s all. I expect they will without a doubt have thoughts on us too.
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Graham Bullough wrote:. As an anology it would also be wrong for HR people to deduce from this forum that all OS&H people are obsessed with RIDDOR and cannot agree about what is notifiable or not! Haa Haa from a H&S Person thats all I pretty much deduce!
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Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Rather you than me Kate.
Sorry, rubbish response from me.
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Kate
Having read your OP and subsequent answers to questions that others have raised then in my opinion the HR response seems reasonable in the described circumstances.
Kind regards.
Jeff
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Responses to the tough question raised by Kate are very instructive.
On the basis of the information available, the issue is imponderable. On the one hand, generally the professional standards of HR have risen enormously since I joined what was 'IPM' in 1978. Yet, even the recent reconstruction of training standards and qualifications for HR people interested in professional membership includes very little attention to Health and Safety.
Viewing the discussion forums on the CIPD website this week, I've read replies by seasonsed well-intentioned Fellows that indicate profound,and I do mean very elementary, ignorance of straightforward safety laws, e.g. Manual Handling Operations Regs,in relation to the application of The Equality Act 2010. The resentment there to simply questioning 'groupthink' is so sad, in every sense of the word. No blood spilt yet shamefully the harsh words of Jesus about Pharisees fit.
The alcohol issue raised by Kate is a lot more complex; so, there may well be a serious risk that HR folk may pull rank when ignorance of, for example, the insurance issues highlighted in this thread are so significant.
An option open to Kate, in the light of the caution recorded by several experienced safety professionals, is to record in writing the insurance implications and to send the information in confidence to directors as well as to HR.
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Kieran
I have had great fun teasing HR departments in the past, as there seems to be 2 at least of them for every piece of HR law to usually one H&S bod for over 250 laws or acops and 1000 odd BS. Ignorance of safety law basics is infuriating but more so is when they start lecturing you on safety law.
Kate, Kieran does make a valid point re recording your position on this somehow.
Good luck and kind regards
Jeff
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rich777 wrote:So someone suffering from diabetes can appear drunk and smell of alcohol without having drunk alcohol?
Peculia!
Rich A diabetic - usually type I - who suffers a hypoglycaemic episode (low blood sugar) may very well present with symptoms akin to drunkeness. The brain uses glucose for its work so low blood glucose levels can result in lowered cognitive functioning, confusion, drowsiness, slurring of speech etc. It is also well understood that a more acute attack can produce a reaction called ketoacidosis. When there is insufficient glucose to be processed by the body it will begin to use stored fats to produce some energy. A byproduct of this use of body fats as a fuel is the production of ketones. With sufficient 'build up' in the system these ketones can be detected in the patient's breath and this smell, best characterised as being like nail varnish or pear drops, is often mistaken for alcohol. Primary medicine professionals and first-aiders are well aware of this 'problem' and even with this knowledge it can be very easy to misdiagnose a hypoglycaemic attack as simply someone who has simply had "one too many".
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Rank: Super forum user
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Jeff Watt - great point on the number of HR personnel in comparison to safety personnel - in my experience with regards their numbers I tend to get them down as hazards on my slip trips risk assessments.
Only joking if we have the company of HR viewing today……………………..
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KATE83 wrote: Barnaby, if you have an opinion on my request, please join the thread if not read and simply follow with interest or don’t get involved.
Ouch!! Ok, maybe I was being less than helpful, BUT perhaps this particular aspect had a bearing on HR's " stance"? I think your OP was a little confused about what you actually wanted. It is headed "Advice please" but you end up simply asking for "opinions on the HR stance". I'm not sure quite sure how you expect such opinions (from those not in possession of all the facts) to help. If you have a situation where you believe a decision by HR is likely to lead to a person injuring themselves or others and exposing your organisation to risk of litigation then you clearly need to take action. In my experience such situations often arise in large organisations not just with colleagues in HR but a range of other specialist colleagues whose decisions or advice impinge on operational management. From your subsequent posts it would seem you consider that you have taken this as far as you can with HR. You referred to an 'HR team'; have managers further up the HR hierarchy been involved? Assuming they have and continue to maintain the same ‘stance’ I would suggest making a note of the outcome of the meetings you had, sending them a copy and asking if they agree it is a fair summary. You then need to inform them that you continue to believe there are significant risks to both individuals and the organisation* and say you intend to raise the matter through the management structure (see section 7 of IOSH Code of Conduct). It might also be wise to discuss it with your line manager, too! *Of course, these discussions clarifying the position of each side could end up with you concluding that in this instance the HR professionals approach could be implemented in a way where the risks can be adequately controlled.
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Many a useful word is spoken in jest.....
Jeff observes '2 at least of them for every piece of HR law to usually one H&S bod for over 250 laws or acops and 1000 odd BS
The really imponderable issue in the story outlined by Kate is that we (and perhaps she) has no information on whether the HR folk may be addressing the problem in terms of The Equality Act 2010 (without regrettably including K in the circle of confidence).
Both statutory and case law about various forms of discrimination (Kate has not indicated all the possibly relevant personal characteristics of the IP in this instance) encourage HR and any other managers to keep their cards to their collective chests. Hence the reference earlier to the tension about manual handling - where a lead school inspector, a physically disabled nun, asked to be physically carried around the school during an inspection and none, repeat not one, HR commentator made any reference to the relevant provisions of the MHO due to blinkers due to the Equality Act.
That said, one of the signals of street-wisdom on the part of really shrewd HR and employment lawyers is their professions of genuine caution about safety violations, due to the possibilities of criminal liability: they literally go out of their way to ensure informed opinions of safety/health professionals are listened to In my experience, some even tell m.d's: 'You can do as you like, of course, as long as you're willing to pay for it and don't point a finger at me!'
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KATE83 wrote:We have an employee who is expected to use step ladders for short periods of time in their duties - the other day the person fell off and injured herself, lost a couple of days and returned to work and resumed normal duties - however, the accident investigator and witnesses have confirmed IP smelt of alcohol. This was also confirmed by the hospital who treated her, blood test confirmed over the driving limit but IP does not drive.
The matter has been escalated to HR who have decided that due to the person having some issues at home - this matter will be addressed via keeping an eye on her and monitoring the situation.
Any opinions on the HR stance?
I don't need any feedback on the use of ladder, risk assessments, training or inspection regimes for the equipment - all is in order and the investigation is of good quality which leads to the condition ( excess alcohol) being the main factor of the incident. Can we establish how the employer recieved copies of the emloyers blood tests? This is possible the most significant, and serious, of the question.
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Rank: Guest
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wclark1238 wrote:rich777 wrote:So someone suffering from diabetes can appear drunk and smell of alcohol without having drunk alcohol?
Peculia!
Rich A diabetic - usually type I - who suffers a hypoglycaemic episode (low blood sugar) may very well present with symptoms akin to drunkeness. The brain uses glucose for its work so low blood glucose levels can result in lowered cognitive functioning, confusion, drowsiness, slurring of speech etc. It is also well understood that a more acute attack can produce a reaction called ketoacidosis. When there is insufficient glucose to be processed by the body it will begin to use stored fats to produce some energy. A byproduct of this use of body fats as a fuel is the production of ketones. With sufficient 'build up' in the system these ketones can be detected in the patient's breath and this smell, best characterised as being like nail varnish or pear drops, is often mistaken for alcohol. Primary medicine professionals and first-aiders are well aware of this 'problem' and even with this knowledge it can be very easy to misdiagnose a hypoglycaemic attack as simply someone who has simply had "one too many". Thanks for the information - you learn something new everyday. Appreciated! Rich
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