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Tom Pople  
#1 Posted : 10 December 2012 12:09:31(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tom Pople

I am looking for some opinions on what would (or could) be considered suitable and sufficient control measures to prevent the slips, trips and falls caused by icy conditions. The background here is that a storage company have a main location (manned) and several remote sites (unmanned) into which customers can come and go as they please, these locations are monitored via CCTV. Is it reasonable to expect the storage company to grit (for example) these unmanned premises or are there other options? For example the lighting is sufficient, the ground conditions are flat, brushed finished concrete slabs, signage can be made available. The company are obviously reluctant to employ persons to check each location when there is a potential frost but I find it difficult to see how they can dispel / satisfy their duty to their customers? Any guidance would be much appreciated, many thanks.
Jake  
#2 Posted : 10 December 2012 12:23:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

Are the other remote sites totally unmanned? I.e. an employee will never be there? Depends if you are looking from a criminal or civil (or both) point of view. I can almost guarentee that if you have snow / ice formation on the site (that you would know about due to weather forecasting and as a reactive resort, your CCTV) and continue to allow customers onto the site and you do nothing to treat the area, and someone slips, you won't be able to defend a claim. The reasonableness test has been shown to not be satisfied by citing "mother nature" and some degree of snow / ice clearing and gritting should be adopted, as a result of a risk assessment and documented policy on this.
Tom Pople  
#3 Posted : 10 December 2012 12:40:05(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tom Pople

Thank you for the post, this is what i had expected to be honest, they do have periodic visits by their staff but these would not be often enough to deal with this issue. I am thinking that an option that may need to be looked at would be to make the decision to close the remotes until the CCTV, thermometer readings etc, show that the sites are free from ice or snow. This can be one via a RA and documented policy procedure. Thanks again
Ron Hunter  
#4 Posted : 10 December 2012 12:43:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

The employer should be reasonably satisfied that the area is not prone to icing, i.e. the drainage is well-maintained, with no signficant standing water. CCTV might serve to keep an eye on that, but some routine maintenance might be advisable. The employer could also consider maintaining a grit box on the premises, particularly where there are slopes, stairs, ramps etc.
A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 10 December 2012 12:49:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Who are the customers? If the conditions warrant it can you close the sites off? If you detect that the conditions at a particular site are hazardous then can you not tell the customers that the site is not longer to be used until it has been made safe. Could you use email, text etc to communicate this?
Tom Pople  
#6 Posted : 10 December 2012 14:12:48(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tom Pople

The customers are any person who has rented the garage style units, of which there are several across the concrete yard area. Thank you for the input, i will get back to the company with this information to see if communication with these customers is a viable option, in extreme cases. Could it been seen as an adequate control (defence in the case of a civil claim) to give detail of the potential for icy conditions and provide grit / salt and expect the customers to use it.
Ron Hunter  
#7 Posted : 10 December 2012 14:48:41(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Tom Pople wrote:
Could it been seen as an adequate control (defence in the case of a civil claim) to........ provide grit / salt and expect the customers to use it.
This is essentially the method of LAs across the land who provide grit boxes at strategic locations.
farmsafety  
#8 Posted : 10 December 2012 14:50:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
farmsafety

Tom Pople wrote:
The customers are any person who has rented the garage style units, of which there are several across the concrete yard area. Thank you for the input, i will get back to the company with this information to see if communication with these customers is a viable option, in extreme cases. Could it been seen as an adequate control (defence in the case of a civil claim) to give detail of the potential for icy conditions and provide grit / salt and expect the customers to use it.
Surely we can assume that a person who has the wit to rent a storage unit, will also have the wit to determine when ground conditions are risky due to snow or ice. He/she will have ample time to ponder this as they drive/walk to these units. How are you going to enforce any kind of shutdown, other than a security gate at the entrance, and then you may be accused of preventing access to their property? I would consider the provision of a grit box for your customers to use is a reasonable solution, whether they choose to use it or not. I would not consider it reasonable to have someone visit the site each day to lay grit down for a situation that may not be utilised at all. There are many storage units located on remote farm sites, with the customer being free to come and go as they choose, including severe weather conditions should they so choose. I have no knowledge of any such user attempting to sue the landlord/farmer should a slipping injury occur.
David Bannister  
#9 Posted : 10 December 2012 14:55:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Tom, if I was one of your customers being told that I couldn't gain access to my rented storage space because of a bit of frost I would rapidly find another storage solution. Maybe the safety argument could just hold up when viewed on its own but the potential damage to the business should also be factored in to the decision on access. Whilst a massive snowfall may close the roads, what would the response of the online retailer or shopkeeper who cannot get access to their stocks and in turn let down their customers if they have easily navigated the gritted main road and are frustrated because their landlord was fearful of a slip in the yard?
Tom Pople  
#10 Posted : 10 December 2012 14:59:49(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Tom Pople

These are all very valid points and i think the provision of a grit box and detail of these provisions given to the customers should provide adequate controls firstly to maintain the safety of the customers and also satisfy the company's duty of care. Thank you all again for your help, and this forum is something that i will definately use again in the future.
A Kurdziel  
#11 Posted : 10 December 2012 15:10:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

david bannister wrote:
Tom, if I was one of your customers being told that I couldn't gain access to my rented storage space because of a bit of frost I would rapidly find another storage solution. Maybe the safety argument could just hold up when viewed on its own but the potential damage to the business should also be factored in to the decision on access. Whilst a massive snowfall may close the roads, what would the response of the online retailer or shopkeeper who cannot get access to their stocks and in turn let down their customers if they have easily navigated the gritted main road and are frustrated because their landlord was fearful of a slip in the yard?
And that’s what sometime happens. The public roads are gritted and because vehicles are driving on it the ice melts and it’s not a problem. Then they turn off the road onto a yard and it’s an ice rink. How likely this scenario is depends on the local conditions; the drainage of yard surface, the type of surface etc. The problem with a remote location is that you just don’t know what the local conditions are. What do your customers expect? How annoyed would they be if they couldn’t get access to the stores? Customer engagement?
Kim Hedges  
#12 Posted : 11 December 2012 12:04:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kim Hedges

What do you call (Define) remote?
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