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Jane Blunt  
#41 Posted : 12 December 2012 08:55:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

Steveeckersley wrote:

The De-fib is a machine that can act as as an agent of life or death.


From what we are told, I do not believe this to be true.

We are told that, in certain situations a defib can preserve life, and we are told that the machines should be used, whether a trained person is present or not. They can therefore be an agent of life.

We are also told that they are sophisticated and cannot deliver a shock to a person who should not have one, so I don't think they could be classed as an agent of death.
B.Bruce  
#42 Posted : 12 December 2012 08:59:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
B.Bruce

Steveeckersley wrote:
A Kurdziel wrote:
Yes as it is work equipment but I think that the regulations are designed to protect the users of the work equipment not anybody it is being used on- eg a member of the public.

I would want them trained so that at least they know what they are doing. Could you imagine giving someone a blow torch and say - You dont need training just do it!. The De-fib is a machine that can act as as an agent of life or death. I wouldnt be confident of any success if the person using it hasnt been trained how to.


Steve, as has been mentioned many times on this thread - most new defib units do not shock unless it detects a rhythm in fibrillation. So, its wrong to say the machine is an agent 'of death' - silly thing to say and only adds to the confusion, scare-mongery and general fear factor about using this essential life saving device. This is the crux of my arguement through this thread. It is in fact dangerous to promote the idea that these machines are themselves dangerous - remember, the person is DEAD and unlikely to survive if no attempts are made to use the defib unit.

I dont understand why some respondents on this thread are so distracted by the need for training. Would you say the same had your loved one died while the defib lay next to them waiting for a trained first aider to arrive...............3 minutes passes away quickly
B.Bruce  
#43 Posted : 12 December 2012 09:01:51(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
B.Bruce

Jane Blunt wrote:
Steveeckersley wrote:

The De-fib is a machine that can act as as an agent of life or death.


From what we are told, I do not believe this to be true.

We are told that, in certain situations a defib can preserve life, and we are told that the machines should be used, whether a trained person is present or not. They can therefore be an agent of life.

We are also told that they are sophisticated and cannot deliver a shock to a person who should not have one, so I don't think they could be classed as an agent of death.


Jane - you beat me to it.............my fingers are still cold (as is my brain)............coffee is required I think
HeO2  
#44 Posted : 12 December 2012 09:35:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HeO2

The bottom line is:

In a cardiac arrest caused by VF or PVT a defib. is the only thing that will turn this around if it is applied in time. CPR is a good holding measure until a defib arrives, but thats all it is.

For every minute post arrest that passes, without a defib being applied, chances of a return of spontaneous circulation are reduced by 7 - 10%

They will only shock if one is required, so are quite safe

They are simple to use, and training isn't required, however it is recommended, and readily available, free of charge

They are relatively cheap, and part funding in certain circumstances are still available

Many Healthcare professionals give up their free time to teach BLS and safe use of AED's to laypeople and Companies

If you still need convincing, look at the short video from the oliver King foundation on youtube, and please sign our petition.

Phil
B.Bruce  
#45 Posted : 12 December 2012 10:27:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
B.Bruce

HeO2 wrote:
The bottom line is:


If you still need convincing, look at the short video from the oliver King foundation on youtube, and please sign our petition.

Phil


Thanks HeO2. Such a terribly sad story...........I'm holding back the tears in an office full of people! Simply awful.

As HeO2 posted, watch the youtube video and sign their e-petition

www.theoliverkingfoundation.co.uk

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/29399

Thanks
HeO2  
#46 Posted : 12 December 2012 11:03:34(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HeO2

Below is a story from our Heartstart news letter.
Names changed for confidentiality.





The real ‘Chain of Survival’ at Lancaster Railway Station


On the afternoon of Wednesday 7th November 2012 71 year old Mrs X
was waiting on Platform 4 at Lancaster Station to catch a train down to London. Just as she was boarding the train she suffered a sudden cardiac arrest. This set in motion a real life Chain of Survival.

The First Link: Early recognition and Call for Help

The people standing behind Mrs X were Mrs A and Mrs B. Mrs B had been trained just 2 weeks earlier in Emergency Life Support by her local CFR team, Walney Island, led by Chris Fagan. As Mrs X collapsed Mrs A and Mrs B came to her assistance. Mrs B shouted for help and a passenger on the train, a nurse, came to her aid. Mrs A had placed Mrs X in the recovery position on the platform but then noticed her breathing had changed. Mrs B rang for an ambulance.


The Second Link: Cardio Pulmonary Resuscitation (CPR)

Mrs B and the nurse recognized that Mrs X was unconscious and not breathing normally, - Cardiac Arrest and started effective CPR immediately.


The Third Link: Defibrillation

Fortunately for Mrs X she had collapsed just a few meters away from a publicly accessible Automated External Defibrillator (AED), located on the platform. This was brought to the scene by Virgin employee Mr A who was on platform duty that day. The AED pads were attached to Mrs X and two shocks were delivered. This combined with effective CPR resulted in Bridget’s heart restarting. A local GP Dr Z from Carnforth happened to arrive at the station and came to assist with the resuscitation attempt.


The Fourth Link: Advanced Life Support/Post Resuscitation Care

The Ambulance crew who arrived on scene that day was Mr A and Mr B from Lancaster. They worked effectively with the bystanders and the GP to provide effective post resuscitation care, IV access and advanced airway management. Mrs X was transported swiftly to Lancaster Royal Infirmary. When she arrived at hospital she was alive but unconscious and was admitted to Intensive Care.
One month later and Mrs X is back at home and her 3 daughters (all healthcare professionals) are making arrangements for a very special Christmas.
Without the help of the seven people who came to her immediate assistance that day and provided the links in the Chain of Survival, Mrs X would not be sitting at the dining table with her family this Christmas. To the mystery nurse who came to Bridget’s aid and will probably still be wondering what the outcome was, and all who contributed to this Chain of Survival, Thank you.


Phil
A Kurdziel  
#47 Posted : 12 December 2012 13:00:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Perhaps what I was trying to say in post #18 hasn’t come across. I am not saying that it would be wrong for people to use a defibrillator without training. Of course people should use it, but without some sort of training people just won’t use it. It’s human nature if they are presented with a piece of kit that they have never seen before, never used before and even scarier, talks to them, they would not use it. If you are going to install these pieces of kit, you should train people to use them- even if this training just consists of telling them that you can’t kill someone with it and all you have to do is follow the instructions. You should also maintain them; even if all that involves is checking the batteries. I know they alarm and ask for the batteries to be replaced but people are quite capable of ignoring an alarm if it suits them. Even if they respond where would they get new batteries from? So you need a system.
The interested thing about HeO2’s post is that the process was initiated by a trained medical professional; a nurse and that there were trained people available to use the defibrillator.

VanDeventer26943  
#48 Posted : 12 December 2012 13:20:15(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
VanDeventer26943

AED's were originally designed and made with audio instructions for use by the layman.. However, all first aid courses nowadays should have a module on CPR AND the use of an AED. So in essence, yes. A percentage of your workforce must be trained on how to use them.
B.Bruce  
#49 Posted : 12 December 2012 14:37:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
B.Bruce

VanDeventer26943 wrote:
AED's were originally designed and made with audio instructions for use by the layman.. However, all first aid courses nowadays should have a module on CPR AND the use of an AED. So in essence, yes. A percentage of your workforce must be trained on how to use them.


"must be trained" - disagree!

Should be trained is a more accurate description. Not splitting hairs............but as you poitn out, AEDs provide audio (and some times visual) instruction.
stevedm  
#50 Posted : 12 December 2012 16:52:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

This still going...at work yes train your first aiders need it...public access no...

Para 6 and 29 FAW ACOP .

stevedm  
#51 Posted : 12 December 2012 16:57:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
stevedm

sorry meant para 61...
B.Bruce  
#52 Posted : 13 December 2012 08:41:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
B.Bruce

stevedm wrote:
This still going...at work yes train your first aiders need it...public access no...

Para 6 and 29 FAW ACOP .



..................AED's provide this training 'on the spot'.........along with information and detailed verbal instruction.
tabs  
#53 Posted : 13 December 2012 13:54:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
tabs

quote=B.Bruce]
tabs wrote:


Training (I am qualified) does not just cover how to apply pads and which button to press - it shows people how to recognise when to grab the AED and all of the support activities too. Most people would not even look for an AED until you bring it to their attention, and some people still think it is the reserve of highly trained people. Even 10-minute video presentations can help debunk these issues.

quote]

I totally agree with everything you say - however, there is a danger that we lose vital time having to wait for fully trained individuals to arrive at the incident scene. Dont get me wrong - Training is important and helpful - but in this instant its not crucial............if the persons is left to die on the pavement while the AED sits in the office waiting for the trained user to collect it then we have already lost our way, not only have we missed a valuable opportunity to save a life.

3 minutes is all you have before the brain suffers irrepairable damage.


B.Bruce not sure if you read my post but I do not advocate waiting for trained people. I advocate making people aware of what a defib is and where it is, and that they are safe to use it. Stand outside any train station and ask passers-by if they are "allowed" to use a defib machine and the response will be very different than you find amongst this specialist forum. Now your challenge is how to make these people aware, dispel their reluctance, and encourage them to try to save someone without it being called "training".
Not all training has to be laborious or long. :-)
Steveeckersley  
#54 Posted : 14 December 2012 10:30:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Steveeckersley

B.Bruce wrote:
Steveeckersley wrote:
A Kurdziel wrote:
Yes as it is work equipment but I think that the regulations are designed to protect the users of the work equipment not anybody it is being used on- eg a member of the public.

I would want them trained so that at least they know what they are doing. Could you imagine giving someone a blow torch and say - You dont need training just do it!. The De-fib is a machine that can act as as an agent of life or death. I wouldnt be confident of any success if the person using it hasnt been trained how to.


Steve, as has been mentioned many times on this thread - most new defib units do not shock unless it detects a rhythm in fibrillation. So, its wrong to say the machine is an agent 'of death' - silly thing to say and only adds to the confusion, scare-mongery and general fear factor about using this essential life saving device. This is the crux of my arguement through this thread. It is in fact dangerous to promote the idea that these machines are themselves dangerous - remember, the person is DEAD and unlikely to survive if no attempts are made to use the defib unit.

I dont understand why some respondents on this thread are so distracted by the need for training. Would you say the same had your loved one died while the defib lay next to them waiting for a trained first aider to arrive...............3 minutes passes away quickly

You are quite right - It came out the wrong way I meant the Defib is an aid to life and if not used death could occur. I suppose as I often quote something is better than nothing especially in this situation however I would be more happier them doing CPR than failing to use the machine properly. & yes alot of the machines only shock if their is rythem detection and that in itself could be a problem as the untrained person just sits there waiting for the shock to happen when infact CPR cant do any harm when you do it ! apart from a few broken ribs.
Steveeckersley  
#55 Posted : 14 December 2012 10:36:36(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Steveeckersley

Forgot to say - Ive never used one of these small machines so I will next time at the train station have agood look at one!
HeO2  
#56 Posted : 14 December 2012 10:59:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
HeO2

Steveeckersley wrote:
B.Bruce wrote:
Steveeckersley wrote:
A Kurdziel wrote:
Yes as it is work equipment but I think that the regulations are designed to protect the users of the work equipment not anybody it is being used on- eg a member of the public.

I would want them trained so that at least they know what they are doing. Could you imagine giving someone a blow torch and say - You dont need training just do it!. The De-fib is a machine that can act as as an agent of life or death. I wouldnt be confident of any success if the person using it hasnt been trained how to.


Steve, as has been mentioned many times on this thread - most new defib units do not shock unless it detects a rhythm in fibrillation. So, its wrong to say the machine is an agent 'of death' - silly thing to say and only adds to the confusion, scare-mongery and general fear factor about using this essential life saving device. This is the crux of my arguement through this thread. It is in fact dangerous to promote the idea that these machines are themselves dangerous - remember, the person is DEAD and unlikely to survive if no attempts are made to use the defib unit.

I dont understand why some respondents on this thread are so distracted by the need for training. Would you say the same had your loved one died while the defib lay next to them waiting for a trained first aider to arrive...............3 minutes passes away quickly

You are quite right - It came out the wrong way I meant the Defib is an aid to life and if not used death could occur. I suppose as I often quote something is better than nothing especially in this situation however I would be more happier them doing CPR than failing to use the machine properly. & yes alot of the machines only shock if their is rythem detection and that in itself could be a problem as the untrained person just sits there waiting for the shock to happen when infact CPR cant do any harm when you do it ! apart from a few broken ribs.



Hi Steve,

ALL of the defibs will only charge up up supply a shock if they detect a shockable rhythm, some will then require the user to press a flashing red button, or the fully automatic defibs will issue a warning to stand clear, then start a countdown and deliver the shock automatically.

ALL of the defibs will give an audible instruction to continue with CPR if they detect an un-shockable rhythm (ie a-systole, or normal sinus rhythm)

So they really are foolproof, we have been teaching 8 year old cubs and brownies to use them recently

Phil
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