Rank: Super forum user 
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I’ve just been out to fill up with petrol.
We are situated on a large but low occupancy Office/industrial estate where there are a couple of trees being removed.
A bloke is using a stump grinder. Two girls, maybe early 20s, walked as close by as they could; the machine is damn noisy & spewing out chippings, but these two idiots were too stupid to cross over the road ( virtually no traffic about) and get out of the way.
You could argue that the area should have been signed & barriered ( elf n safety gorn mad) but what about personal awareness & responsibility.
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No, not morons, just people who are thinking about other things, X factor, who to pay the mortgage etc. Most of the time most people do not think about Health and Safety until there has been an accident or someone with a clipboard, tells them to do something. Then most of them say, ’Yes your are right. thanks for pointing this out’ a few turn around and say ‘Who are you? What’s it to do with you? It’s Health and Safety gone mad! I’ll write to the Daily Mail!’
Not morons just human nature.
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I thought self preservation was a building block of human nature.
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walker wrote:I thought self preservation was a building block of human nature.
Perhaps Maslow was wrong!
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Ahhhhhhh life would be boring without morons......the risk takers keep us elf (seasonal image there) & safety bods in work!
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Actually if you go back and look at Maslow, the bottom of the hierarchy of needs is physiological needs: food, shelter, warmth and last nights party, and what Shirley from accounts got upto with that Tony.
Health and Safety does not register until the person is fully self-actualising (apparently)
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A Kurdziel,
You & I are not disagreeing, maybe what I mean is we are re breeding a generation with different values.
And maybe I shouldn't judge them against my own.
My cat would have had the sense to cross over the road, out of the way.
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Q: are we breeding morons - Yes!
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Is this country breeding morons?
Yes, I think you will find most of them are in the current Government
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Rank: Guest
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Quote - Yes, I think you will find most of them are in the current Government.
Who are the others?
Rich
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I blame the parents - lack of information instruction supervision and training!!!
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I think the others are in the media/tabloid world?
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JJ Prendergast wrote:Is this country breeding morons?
Yes, I think you will find most of them are in the current Government
No need to insult morons like that.
Walker
Did the girls complain about getting covered in wood chips ?, because if they are not bothered or is it bovered, then why should anyone else. Perhaps your cat should go self employed in adult education.
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I could equally say 'is this country breeding intolerance'!
Isn't it easy to criticise others. Have you never done something and then someone pointed out what you'd done and suddenly you realised how stupid you'd been? I know I have many a time. Just because someone hasn't automatically clocked the risks that doesn't make them a moron. That makes them human.
However, H&S professionals belittling the intelligence of others who don't see the risks that they do, does nothing for the reputation of the profession.
Don't be so quick to criticise others, otherwise others will be quick to criticise you!
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This afternoon we watched as some guys were delivering batteries (accumulators) which were going to be used in an uninterruptable power supply (UPS). There were a lot of them and they were heavy. The guys decided to man-handle them up two flights of stairs, two batteries at a time. Some kind soul pointed out that they should be using a trolley and then they could take them up in the lift. We then watched as they found a trolley which was in the back of their van but they hadn’t bothered to use and then tried to negotiate this now heavy trolley over a 4 inch kerb. The same gentle souls then suggested that they move their van so it was next to the kerb and the trolley could be put on the pavement and it could be loaded directly from the van to the trolley.
These guys were not our employees. Who hired them? What criteria did they use?
One problem with H&S as it is now exists is that in the old days of factories and stuff employees could be supervised constantly by foremen etc. Nowadays these people are out and about doing there own thing. Some are even self employed. But how do you manage them and ensure adequate, training, information, supervision etc?
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That's pretty much how I see my job role some times, to protect people from their own stupidity!
Most of claims that pass my desk are due to someone doing something stupid and injuring themselves, but it still ends up being the employer's fault for allowing them to do said stupid thing!
Mr Flibble
Anti-Stupidity Officer
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I think the most telling part of the original post is:
"You could argue that the area should have been signed & barriered ( elf n safety gorn mad)"
Why would posting signs and erecting barriers be, as you put it, elf and safety gorn mad? If someone was using a piece of hazardous equipment in a factory would you then think it reasonable to put up barriers and warning signs? Why should the the public highway be any different? In this situation it is up to those in charge of the work to take adequate precautions to protect the public just as much, or perhaps more so, as it is up to the public to protect themselves.
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A Kurdziel
These guys were not our employees. Who hired them? What criteria did they use?
[/quote wrote:
Universal criteria, they were the cheapest.
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Yeap...the great British public have been dumbed down as part of the last 3 governments master plan............
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Clairel wrote:I could equally say 'is this country breeding intolerance'!
Isn't it easy to criticise others. Have you never done something and then someone pointed out what you'd done and suddenly you realised how stupid you'd been? I know I have many a time. Just because someone hasn't automatically clocked the risks that doesn't make them a moron. That makes them human.
However, H&S professionals belittling the intelligence of others who don't see the risks that they do, does nothing for the reputation of the profession.
Don't be so quick to criticise others, otherwise others will be quick to criticise you!
I can't believe I am saying this to ClaireL but I agree with you 100%
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redken wrote:walker wrote:I thought self preservation was a building block of human nature.
Perhaps Maslow was wrong!
Maslow was wrong - Some people put Designer clothing before a balanced diet!
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Are we breeding morons? Yes, but twas ever thus. Nothing new there then!
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I also agree with Claire L. A quick read through the thread finds;
** A skilled (?) person who clearly either didn’t consider any control of the public was required or simply didn't know or ignored the required controls.
** Two innocent members of the public who have no reason to understand the dangers.
** Several judgemental safety experts.
To suggest that morons can be / are bred is morally suspect at best and even if meant in fun it is still a dubious choice of phrase.
Surely the question should be about what we can do to improve on this commonly found type of scenario?
Exactly how is labelling anyone ‘moron’ going to change anything for the better?
After all, isn't there still a huge difference between stupidity and ignorance?
p48
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So two young women absentmindedly walk past an unprotected work site and all youths are morons?!!
This thread is appalling...
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..... perhaps the pair will file a 'claim' ;-)
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BuzzLightyear wrote:Clairel wrote:I could equally say 'is this country breeding intolerance'!
Isn't it easy to criticise others. Have you never done something and then someone pointed out what you'd done and suddenly you realised how stupid you'd been? I know I have many a time. Just because someone hasn't automatically clocked the risks that doesn't make them a moron. That makes them human.
However, H&S professionals belittling the intelligence of others who don't see the risks that they do, does nothing for the reputation of the profession.
Don't be so quick to criticise others, otherwise others will be quick to criticise you!
I can't believe I am saying this to ClaireL but I agree with you 100%
So do I.
And noting that the original comments were from an IOSH mentor and Committee member, just about says it all doesn't it?
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You are so right Ian - I don't believe it!!!!!
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Moderation (on several levels) might be prudent.
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I too agree with Clairel.
I was a 20 something young lady a long time in the past, I had other things on my mind and I thought I was invincible as we all do at that age.
Frankly, if the guy was using a stump grinder and the task was liable to cause injury, HE should have cordoned the area off, not expected Joe Public to take avoidance measures. So the fault here lies with the workman, not the poor girls who are slated for walking past an area where there is no indication that there is the likelihood of any harm or injury arising from the task. We are not all born as H&S people.
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Good discussion.
I personally can see both sides to this and as such the workmen should have barriers and signage but the girls should have used an ounce more cocum and made a minor detour.
Whose to say that the girls did not actually perform a dynamic risk assessment and actually want to be 'hit' by a bit of wood chip for some nice compo? (I don't believe this for one second but you never know).
The onus however really does fall back to the workmen though to ensure their operation was being carried out safely to them and others. If anyone was injured I'm pretty sure that would be the outcome.
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Yes, surely liability would lie with the operator but what about the H&S profession(s) here who are quite happy to condone this type of work without some sort of barrier etc?
It is not right to shout about members of the general public being morons who should take responsibility for the unsafe actions of others.
In fact, its depressingly unprofessional. Why did you train? Why do you practise? Surely, you're not in this to assume it's all someone else's problem? Doesn't IOSH have standards that teach against such mistakes?
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I can't help but agree with both Pete and John at #24/25.
The choice of language is 'unfortunate' and I for one am surprised that the mods haven't intervened.
By the way, signage and/or barriers may well have been appropriate!
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My local TV station(s) obviously think so.
They have started, (backed up by the Police, AA etc....who should know better) with the usual wrong advice for driving in the Winter that we should...........DRIVE SLOWLY! DRIVE CAREFULLY!
Is it only me that shouts at the TV when I hear this nonsense???
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hilary wrote:I was a 20 something young lady a long time in the past, I had other things on my mind and I thought I was invincible as we all do at that age.
Me too and I am embarrassed now to recall some of the things I got up to before the age of 20 when life seemed long and we seemed invincible. Not everyone has the awareness that we do of the potential risks with things they encounter in everyday life. Is it not up to all of us as professionals to gently spread the message, much as the "kind souls" in the example above about the unloading of the batteries did, rather than ranting about it in here?
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Entertaining thread, and it's only Wednesday.
Now, for persons working on highways or footpaths, there is a Safety at Street Works and Road Works Code of Practice, the Red Book, on which these tree surgeons ought to have had some training.
It says sensible things including right at the beginning the 'Key Question':
Quote:
Ask yourself this question :
“Will someone coming along the road or footway from any direction understand exactly what is happening and what is expected of them?”
If the answer is no, then they should put up barriers, signs, safety zones etc etc
The OP has indicated rightly that there are some members of the public who will not behave in an expected manner - to keep out of the way - so there should have been barriers.
walker, I loved your comment
Quote:My cat would have had the sense to cross over the road, out of the way.
I must use that in my toolbox talks ;o)
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The answer to the original question is Yes. For evidence, please refer to any episode of Jeremy Kyle.
If you are taking this particular example into the equation then like others, I can see an argument both ways. Personally I'd expect some kind of barrier/warning sign to be in position during the activity - let's be honest if it was a bunch of young kids walking along (rather than young adults) you wouldn't really expect them to be fully aware of the potential dangers? At the same time, in this instance I'd also expect some common sense to kick in and for the pedestrians to be more aware, and give the area a wider berth.
As for young people being morans when it comes to H&S, I was one of those kids that climbed trees, jumped off 10ft high walls into bushes, etc. Some would consider that as moronic, others would consider it as youthful exuberence. I'm still here and in one piece so I opt for the latter :-)
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Pikeman wrote:
They have started, (backed up by the Police, AA etc....who should know better) with the usual wrong advice for driving in the Winter that we should...........DRIVE SLOWLY! DRIVE CAREFULLY!
Is it only me that shouts at the TV when I hear this nonsense???
I'm confused why does that make you shout at the TV? What's wrong with reminding people to take more care when driving in wintery conditions?
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grim72 wrote: At the same time, in this instance I'd also expect some common sense to kick in and for the pedestrians to be more aware, and give the area a wider berth.
As I try to explain in all my training sessions - common sense is taught behaviour not something we are intrinsically born with.
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As a 20 something female who in the not so distant past may have done the exact same thing as these girls, i agree that its the trained prefessional carrying out the works that should have taken the correct precautions to hinder passers by from getting too close. They after all should be aware of the risks they pose.
The need for a bit of commen sense on the public's part may be put forward by some however the variation between what i (20 something female H&S Officer) and my friend (another 20 something female primary teacher) see as commen sense may be completely different - never mind what another person of later years and experience sees it as.
Growing up on a farm and didn't think racing quads bikes, playing hide and seek in amongst straw bales and antagonising livestock was dangerous at all...I certainly don't do much of that anymore! - as we get older we tend to become more firghtened of things...
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