(I have a more detailed answer to what I'll write below in the careers forum somewhere, but in summary)

The majority of jobs I have come across in the last 12ish years 9that I'm interested in) have all specified 'Nebosh Diploma' and some have specified 'member of IOSH' - the important part to note is they do not specify membership level.

I've changed companies 3 times in the above period and only since Feb this year have I decided to go for CMIOSH (peer review in Jan) off my own back.

All I've ever needed to unlock the door (apart my obvious charm and good looks) is the Diploma.

Now I suppose you could argue my point two ways but if asked honestly, I would lean heavily that employers have no idea what they want/need and just see other advertisements specifying IOSH/NEBOSH and copy/paste.

I don't really want to get drawn on this as it's been debated so many times and there are obvious pro's/con's for each but I will say again in my experience the Diploma trumps the NVQ everytime in the eyes of an employer.

I suppose what your last sentance is leaning towards is a thread that goes on about competence/time served etc etc etc but BUT there is a need for formal qualification also.

If I was looking to replace me here, I would specify 10 years minimum manufacturing experience, Diploma and CMIOSH or working towards - but thats with my inside knowledge.
I (knowing this site) would not accept anything less than this - Someone Gen Cert level would fail very quickly or need a bucket load of support.

There are certain jobs that are ok as the nursery slopes and others that are not - thats just the way it is and always will be.
Percieved level of risk usually reaps higher salary also (see this years salary survey) - we all know that legally its not possible to pay danger money but in the real world oil,gas, offshore all pay more....

Damelcfc - Totally missed the point (IMHO). Why should membership of IOSH be required other than demonstrating apparent CPD as a pre-requsite for a job.

There are loads of qualifications out there and loads of qualified people who are not interested in joining a club.

Or is it now necessary to be a member of IOSH before you can even apply for a job let alone get one - I think employers in their ignorance have been hoodwinked by IOSH.

Hence the question has IOSH (deliberately) hi-jacked the jobs market - maybe so in my opinion, as a marketing tool to boost membership.

Also the chicken and egg springs to mind - to get experience you need a job, to get a job you need experience (and qualifications).
Catch 22

Rich

Rich

My real time experience of this trend has indeed been a bad one from an operational perspective.

Some time ago on a mega construction job the HSE department was required to be ramped up to reflect the rapidly increasing development. Four more safety bods were required. The HR dept (don't you just love these folk) kicked in and source 4 "top men" for the job. They interviewed them at HQ despite the job being 380 miles away .

These 4 jolly fellows attended my site where I had to induct them to pretty stringent site rules. It was only then that I found out who they were as they were inducted with 60 or so others on the day and I made a particular effort to talk to my class individually as well as collectively. How else do you know who your chaps and lassies are and what they do etc etc ?

Face value fine although I got the distinct feeling that two them were not going to cut the metal. These two were OSHCR Registered and a number of post nominals. The other two were not "Registered" one coming from a NHS background whilst the fourth has a variety of low risk exposure. These were the guys who were commanding £800 per week.

After two days and site exposure a number of the tools trade made complaints about unnecessary and heavy handed interference. By the 2nd week I had to advise the site manager that these guys were falling short in far too many ways (one was afraid of working of the ground. Another asked me what a lift plan was and so on - far to many shortcomings to list here.)

During their week our client (the Main Contractor) summoned myself and the site Manager to inquire into stories that had been circulating and had reached Board Room Level.

Week number 4 when necessary monthly area Report were due none were forthcoming in any meaningful way. I had to report this to the Site Manager. He had responsibilities to higher powers.

As a mild temperate man not noted for throwing his teddy out I noticed him wringing his hands in despair as he posed the following question: what shall we do Jon?

A one way ticket home I suggested. He dismissed them as it was ultra vires my powers to do so.

We recruited 4 chaps from the trades - not IOSH members at the time. They are still with us on individual contracts - one in Oman.

HR dept was most disturbed by the dismissal.


Jon

Clairel

I knew you would agree - but how did this situation happen - how did IOSH hi-jack the jobs market?

Also like you I don't have a diploma - went the old NVQ4 route which I prefer to this day as it demonstrates hands on ability not just theory learnt in a classroom.

And what a joke some HR (specialists?) are after reading Jon M's post. The mind boggles

Rich

It's been a pre-requisite for almost every job I've had since leaving the HSE. In fact being CMIOSH has been a pre-requisite, not just of getting the job but also staying in the job.

If thats the case then I have to agree then Rich but it hasn't always been and I have only been in current position 1 year. Around this time last year I was extremely active looking for my next challenge and Dilpma was specified a hell of a lot, NVQ not at all and IOSH membership only now and again - this was honestly the position 12 months ago.
Things do change I know but again I'd still suggest that those specifying CMIOSH etc etc have just seen it elsewhere and think it looks cool to ask for it like they know what they are on about.

Employer sets their own rules on the person spec.

When I was employing safety personnel I would only consider IOSH members - it is the body I knew, my own professional Institution and at the level I was recruiting for I knew what type of person I wanted. In my opinion I was most likely to find them from amongst IOSH members.

I was very pleased with the people who accepted the jobs I had.

If I was recruiting again tomorrow for general safety people I would not dream of looking elsewhere.

I applied for a job recently and was not inteviewed simply becuase they wanted you to have the Diploma, IOSH memberhsip alone was not good enough. I am CMIOSH but did my NEBSOH before the intoduction of the Diploma.

Let's say I mostly agree with David B and Pete48 on this, but I do also share Claire's lament that 'or equivalent' is too often not put just after the bit that says 'NEBOSH Diploma'. When I've advertised I've always stated experience of H&S in a Health & Social care setting, minimum of Dip or equivalent, and capacity to join IOSH at Grad with a view to CMIOSH. Some of it is because of the environment I work in. Many of my peers are nurses, doctors, allied health professionals and the like, and these people are positively fixated on qualifications and membership of professional bodies. They would not be convinced by experience alone, after all, they can't hold their posts without qualifications and professional membership, why would they accept that we can?

That's maybe different on a site, or in many manufacturing environments. But on sites and in factories, CPD is a good thing, and IOSH is the only body which has a CPD scheme, and has done for years now, there was a voluntary one for those of us who were RSP back in the day, and in my opinion it does matter. So if one of my team leaves (perish the thought) my next ad will state experience of H&S in a Health & Social Care setting, minimum of Dip or equivalent, and capacity to join IOSH at Grad with a view to CMIOSH,

John

Chris, sadly you are right, it's not an employees market nowadays,

John

I've previously been a member of IIRSM (MIIRSM). Found it to be equally worthless to be honest. Ditched that and kept up with my CMIOSH because it is much more frequently asked for.

CMIOSH does not get me a job but it gets me past the first sift of applications. Beyond that it's all my own merit and experience that gets me anywhere.

Thank you very much for backing up what I am saying is actually happening in the real world - like it or not folks its the truth.

I have worked in HSE for many years now and in my experience, qualifications and letters do not make you competent at doing your job. I work in the Oil & Gas industry and i would much rather hire somebody that has the relevant experience than somebody who has a diploma or CMIOSH after their name. I only have the NEBOSH general cert and am Tech IOSH but have no plans to further this. This has never held me back in getting a job as i have had experience working in HSE onshore, offshore & overseas.

Anybody who is hired is on a probationary period anyway so you can get a good idea in that time if the person is going to work out in your organization. Companies can be a bit blinkered when it comes to recruiting and stating the requirements that they are looking for but as stated in previous post, this can be due to poor HR departments. In my organization, the HR department pass any CV's to the HSE department for review and it is up to us to invite somebody in for an interview. We always hire the best person for the job regardless of qualifications.

As usual there seems to be a lot of bashing of people with qualifications and letters after their name.

Whilst I don't think that qualifications and letters in themsleves make someone competent, that doesn't mean that someone with qualifiactions and letters after their name isn't competent.

It is about environments; oil, gas, construction, power and so on will probably value experience more than qualifications; in my environment, and probably in many others, we have to give equal weight to all the components of competence. Somebody who can just come up with solutions won't do for me; they have to be able to couch that solution, often in writing, in terms that nurses (in particular) will understand and respect,

John

I was really hoping for a response from an IOSH senior manager saying how proud they were that IOSH is rightly seen as the premier organisation for safety professionals.

John, I don't, and I'm not,

John

There seems to be some misperception among some forum users that IOSH is:

a) little more than an organisation which most OS&H professionals choose to join to get some nice letters after their name (in return for paying an annual subscription and doing something known as CPD), and

b) run by managers with little or no involvement with what OS&H professionals do.

Perhaps I'm mistaken in having believed for many years that IOSH is run on behalf of its members by managers who liaise regularly with and are monitored by various types of volunteer representatives from among the membership.

However, if I'm not mistaken, surely the members who don't like what IOSH does, or think it could do things better or differently, should take positive action by speaking to or writing with their views to one or more of the representatives - or even becoming a representative!

p.s. Had better add that I was an IOSH representative at local level for some years until earlier this year, so my comments above are intended to be provocative and expand this discussion.

John M - why do you ask your question? I am guessing you feel that IOSH members at higher grades are honourable, honest, upstanding charitable and hardworking members of our great and extended community.