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ExDeeps  
#1 Posted : 09 January 2013 12:33:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ExDeeps

Here's something interesting. BBC is carrying a story about "standing desks"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20947605
Something I've thought about in the past and to my mind the idea has merit. I certainly would quite like to stand sometimes, especially when a long set in back problem comes calling.

I'm sure the DSE experts will have some thoughts, I'll throw my hat in the ring and say I think it's a cracking idea,

Thoughts,

Jim
peter gotch  
#2 Posted : 09 January 2013 13:01:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
peter gotch

Similar principle to the sit/stand chairs at various checkouts.

But might need to consider an angled desk for best ergonomic properties.
David Bannister  
#3 Posted : 09 January 2013 13:27:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

"HMG advises employers to remove all chairs from workplaces based on latest scientific advice"... watch this space!
A Kurdziel  
#4 Posted : 09 January 2013 13:27:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

peter gotch wrote:
Similar principle to the sit/stand chairs at various checkouts.

But might need to consider an angled desk for best ergonomic properties.

or adjustable height desk. I'm six foot four and would not like to be leaning over a small desk for any length of time.
I wonder how long before some clever dick employers try to get rid of office chairs to help their staff's health( and save themselves some money).
Note that The Workplace (Health, Safety, and Welfare) Regulations 1992 regulation 11-
Workstations and seating-(3):
A suitable seat shall be provided for each person at work in the workplace whose work includes operations of a kind that the work (or a substantial part of it) can or must be done sitting.
Note that is says CAN be done sitting

Zimmy  
#5 Posted : 09 January 2013 13:29:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Zimmy

Piles! The perfect gift for the keep-fit-in-the-office enthusiast. I just knew they would come in handy one day!
HSSnail  
#6 Posted : 09 January 2013 13:33:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Have just hung my PC screen from the roof to get the best height to view it. Now how do I climb off this desk?
Gunner1  
#7 Posted : 09 January 2013 13:49:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Gunner1

Nothing new. Stand if you want to because correct if me if I am wrong the advice is to take regular breaks away from your PC workstation. Adjustable and angled desks are available. DSE Assessment should be completed to ensure set up and equipment etc. is suitable for the individual DSE user.
flysafe  
#8 Posted : 09 January 2013 14:01:18(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
flysafe

Have worked a fair bit on HSE in Scandinavia, all desks that i saw were adjustable in height (up/down button) they also had a typical office chair and also most had kneeling chairs. The employees all regularly changed position and were amazed we didnt have same in the UK, they considered it normal and essential. They also had nice liitle break out areas where they met to have a coffee and a chat a couple of times a day and they still got the job done!
colinreeves  
#9 Posted : 09 January 2013 14:06:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
colinreeves

Brian Hagyard wrote:
Have just hung my PC screen from the roof to get the best height to view it. Now how do I climb off this desk?



Don't be daft, you lie down!!
Clairel  
#10 Posted : 09 January 2013 15:08:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

What an absolute nonsense. Standing up all day is not what the human body was designed to do and anyone who does have to stand all day will tell you how many aches and pains it gives them. Sitting down is fine so long as breaks are taken. I would suggest taking active breaks (ie walking about insteadof taking another break sitting down somewhere) is far more benefical than standing all day.

As to kneeling chairs, I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.
jwk  
#11 Posted : 09 January 2013 15:15:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

I wouldn't dismiss it as nonsense Claire; I'd venture to say that standing up all, or at least most of the day is one of the things the human body is designed to do. People who live a hunting/gathering or even a farming lifestyle (though not modern mechanised farming) spend much more time walking and standing than the average office worker. We've been wandering about under our own steam for the best part of a million years (as H. sapiens, even longer if you count our ancestors), and I reckon we've had office jobs for less than ten thousand,

John
Clairel  
#12 Posted : 09 January 2013 15:26:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

jwk wrote:
I wouldn't dismiss it as nonsense Claire; I'd venture to say that standing up all, or at least most of the day is one of the things the human body is designed to do. People who live a hunting/gathering or even a farming lifestyle (though not modern mechanised farming) spend much more time walking and standing than the average office worker. We've been wandering about under our own steam for the best part of a million years (as H. sapiens, even longer if you count our ancestors), and I reckon we've had office jobs for less than ten thousand,

John


There is a huge difference between being active on your feet and standing in one position all day. But even those that are in their feet all day need to sit down too and will do.



Graham Bullough  
#13 Posted : 09 January 2013 15:28:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

John/JWK

Simply standing for long periods is surely very tiring. The same goes for walking about slowly, as most shop assistants will probably confirm. Though shopping (including browsing in shops) is reportedly a national pastime in the UK I dislike having to do so because it's a very tiring activity. It's far less tiring to go for a walk - something which the human frame is better suited to do along with a need to be able to run away from danger, including harm formerly posed to our prehistoric ancestors by mammoths, sabre toothed tigers, etc.
jwk  
#14 Posted : 09 January 2013 15:30:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

True Claire, there is, but one of the things about standing rather than sitting is that it encourages movement. I've been standing at my laptop for six months now, and I find I do move (changing position, walking about for a minute or two while I think) a lot more than I did when I used to sit at it, and my posture's better. People will sit when they can, but all the evdence is that too much inactivity is very bad for us; yes, standing makes people tired, but I reckon getting tired isn't always bad, and avoiding effort at all costs isn't good,

John
jwk  
#15 Posted : 09 January 2013 15:45:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Graham, it is tiring, but see my post above, and yes, walking is something we do very well. Don't forget though that our ancestors almost certainly spent hours walking very slowly through vegetation picking nuts and berries, it wasn't all antelope stew. Something else to think about is that non-westerners used to squat a lot of the time, though by no means always. Sitting in the chair type position is a very recent and probably historically localised idea,

John
Gunner1  
#16 Posted : 09 January 2013 15:46:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Gunner1

Graham Bullough wrote:
John/JWK

Simply standing for long periods is surely very tiring. The same goes for walking about slowly, as most shop assistants will probably confirm. Though shopping (including browsing in shops) is reportedly a national pastime in the UK I dislike having to do so because it's a very tiring activity. It's far less tiring to go for a walk - something which the human frame is better suited to do along with a need to be able to run away from danger, including harm formerly posed to our prehistoric ancestors by mammoths, sabre toothed tigers, etc.

Yes, one should watch out and be ready to run away from the danger posed by mammoths and tigers in the workplace! Your posts do go off topic a little Graham but, I do enjoy them.
jay  
#17 Posted : 09 January 2013 16:26:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

Today's BBC article is not the only one. This has been in various news etc-links below. In a nutshell, sitting on a chair for the amount of time many of us do appears to be detrimental to health and some time spent upright is supposed to be beneficial. I do not think any of the studies/research recommends standing all the time instead of sitting.

Coincidently, a "worker" requested undertaking DSE work and I have agreed to a trial that involves height adjustable stands for the keyboard and screen before the BBC article was published today!


http://www.wired.com/gad...for-a-new-standing-desk/

http://www.businessweek....chair-and-start-standing

http://www.nytimes.com/2...-the-workplace.html?_r=0
NigelB  
#18 Posted : 09 January 2013 17:18:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
NigelB

Jim

From the BBC article I gather that two writers - both dead - found it better to stand up to write. It appears this provides the evidence that everybody should. I undertand that there are about 30 million workers in the UK, granted not all of them will be sitting down to do their work.

In the early 1990s the largest and most extensive ergonomic study of checkout operations reviewed 11 different types. Included was one company who had introduced standing checkouts into one of their stores. Despite the employee's union opposing the greater introduction of standing checkouts, the supermarket went ahead and committed itself to £millions. This programme was stopped when the HSE supported research found the standing checkouts to be the most hazardous - by a long way - as regards musculoskeletal disorders of the 11 stations considered.

As the company would not meet the HSE and the trade union together, it was left to the HSE to confirm that if the work could be done sitting down, a suitable chair should be provided.

I don't think anyone would argue about getting up and moving around. Indeed if people generally took more suitable exercise I have no doubt that health and the efficiency of the workforce - and directors, MPs, doctors, investment bankers etc - would improve.

A novel approach might be to ask the workforce whether they would like to stand for at least 3 hours to do their work and see what the replies are. Of course, this might achieve a result contrary to the 'expert's considered opinion' - and two writers, of course. It would be interesting to see the evidence - as always.

I would not dismiss it out of hand but consider what the advantages were when applied to the work that people actually do.

Cheers.

Nigel
Graham Bullough  
#19 Posted : 09 January 2013 17:26:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Just going a bit off topic again I remember an expert of some sort writing or saying years ago that it's best to stand up while conducting formal phone calls at work. Apparently those who do so sound more authoritative and/or convincing than when sitting down. I forget the reasoning involved but guess that unhindered lung function and breathing helps with clarity and tone of speech.

Also, I fully agree with jwk that too much inactivity such as sitting for long periods, whether at work or at home, is detrimental to health. I've probably mentioned more than once on this forum a scenario in which a manager in an office sought my support for her bid to be provided with a printer adjacent to her computer rather than continue using a shared one across the office. She was surprised (and probably miffed) to be advised that going to the printer or doing anything else which prompted brief breaks from sitting at her desk were beneficial.
jwk  
#20 Posted : 09 January 2013 17:27:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Nigel, today's BBC piece appears to be one person's response to a growing body of evidence; here's a BBC article about a review of literature including data from 800,000 people; http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-19910888

I think the HSE study was probably ill-conceived and on the wrong track; current research isn't about the MSK impact of standing vs sitting, it's about much more serious problems like diabetes, heart disease and so on; and don't forget that weight is likely to bring chronic MSK problems in its train. I don't advocate standing all day; I sit to read articles and sometimes to make phone calls (though I prefer to walk while talking), but I do think that not sitting should be the default position,

John
Ron Hunter  
#21 Posted : 09 January 2013 23:21:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

jwk wrote:
I and I reckon we've had office jobs for less than ten thousand,


The computers back in those days were really monolithic (although the operating systems were in all respects astronomical). And the mice used to bite............
Did Stonehenge provide at least 11 m3 per person?
;-)
Gemma Ryde  
#22 Posted : 10 January 2013 01:39:41(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Gemma Ryde

This is a really interesting discussion. There are two main research arms to the sitting and health outcomes. One is musculoskeletal health, which is I suppose the original and most establish research field, and the other has come from a behavioural epidemiological perspective, and is a lot more recent.

There is now substantial, prospective level evidence to suggest that sitting time is associated with increased mortality, metabolic syndrome and cardiovascular disease. This risk is also said to exist for those who are classed as ‘active’ (30 minutes of exercise of 5 or more days per week), suggesting physical activity cannot compensate for the detrimental effects of sitting all day. The strategy to reduce this is the same though regardless of the outcome (MS or epi), and that is postural variation. Our bodies do not cope well with static, whether that is sitting to standing. The key is to change posture frequently - walk more, sit less and exercise.

Now, lets see how possible that is to implement in the workplace - ideas and thoughts.......
HSSnail  
#23 Posted : 10 January 2013 09:10:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

quote=colinreeves]
Brian Hagyard wrote:
Have just hung my PC screen from the roof to get the best height to view it. Now how do I climb off this desk?



Don't be daft, you lie down!!


must learn to turn this web cam off people can obviously see how I spend most of my day!
Joking apart I am lucky that I don't have to sit at a desk all day and do get to move about but I can see some call centres etc (not all) who have the minimum amount of breaks they can get away with. If these people tried to follow this advice without adjustments to the workstation I'm sure our ergonomist colleagues would see lots of problems. So yes it may be a good idea but work still needed in my opinion.
Hutchison43088  
#24 Posted : 10 January 2013 09:15:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Hutchison43088

Coming from the fitness industry, several years ago we took all our office chairs out and replaced them with swiss balls as these enourage you to sit with good posture and you need to move a little to stay on the the things. It proved popular as was a good way of developing core strength which weakens the longer we sit down. Also the folk that drove alot like them as it gave them a chance to stretch their core and quad muscles which also become tight and limit flexibility over a period of time due to long periods of sitting.

Remember a few meetings sitting on them and you always had to pay attention, you couldnt slouch and switch off and daydream.
johnmurray  
#25 Posted : 10 January 2013 10:06:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

http://hazards.org/standing/index.htm

Good luck with getting a person with stilettos to stand-up at work all day.
I'd love to sit down all day, or even a proportion of it.
Unfortunately the ergonomics, of working on several tonnes of ice-cold rusty steel in a workshop at near-atmospheric temperatures, demands a level of movement that a seated person does not "enjoy".
With my L4 disc herniation I have no trouble sitting down, but considerable trouble leaning over to work while standing.
Unfortunately, few at anything other than office work, can enjoy the ability to have their work/tools at suitable heights for comfort.
Try standing at a checkout for several hours....then note that those staff are not "allowed" to just go for a break (inclusive of needing a leak)....
jay  
#26 Posted : 10 January 2013 10:44:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jay

None of the research/studies conclude standing all the time and for some with pre-existing conditions, it may not be beneficial.

As stated in one of the articles, "........the watchword among ergonomists these days is “postural rotation”: sit a little, stand a little, then repeat........"
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