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ADALE  
#1 Posted : 17 January 2013 20:49:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ADALE

6 months ago I read l144 on CDM 2007. I think I seem to remember somewhere it stating along the lines that if a principal contractor orders a change in a design, he undertakes duties assigned to the designer. But on looking at the same document today including my highlighted text, I can't find the reference. My particular issue is regarding a site manager instructing guard rail be left from a scaffold platform on an elevation facing an adjoining building so the brick layers can take both plots up. I advised him he had contravened WAH 2005 but I was reluctant to mention the CDM Reg's. Basic scaffolds are still designed, though to the generic principals transposed in TG20:08, if he convinces scaffolders to do this again is there any mileage in stating he has taken over design duties? If so where can this be read?
bob youel  
#2 Posted : 18 January 2013 07:58:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

I would break things down into different areas and tackle things from there A: Design areas under CDM where the designers are designing specificially for the structure etc of the finished article and nothing else B: Design under 'other areas' connected with the creation of the building as againt the finished artical noting that a designer designing a building may have nothing to do with nor contribute towards the design of a schaffold that is needed to make that building And irrespective of any specifics re design under CDM where a person alters, removes etc. something then they take full responsibility for their actions some of which can be design responsibilities especially so if this is a 'specificially' designed / structural scaffold The main problems are that scaffolds are not ususlly designed nor resoursed to account for the range of activities undertaken upon then as if they were on many many occasions the scaffold would need to be changed on a daily basis or even more frequant basis so compromises are made noting that the cost of continually having a scaffolder present to alter the scaffold is not liked Perhaps you can look at it from another angle e.g. if the scaffold must be 'rearanged' to allow an activity to proceed then as long as a competent person undertakes the alteration and the integrety of the scaffoold is safe and the staff using it are safe whilst working after the re-arangement then, with what ever new controls you put in place, the risks should be low and go from there. In all cases I would note to the manager that they have the duties / liabilities -This is just a suggestion
achrn  
#3 Posted : 18 January 2013 09:35:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Any person who modifies a design is a designer (regulation 2). It does not matter whether the design is written or not (ACOP para 115) simply instructing a change to a design orally makes someone a designer. Designers includes anyone who alters a design or specifies a particular method of work (ACOP 116 b) and includes contractors carrying out construction management services (116 e). Temporary works including scaffolding is included (116 f). You need to distinguish between designer (under CDM) and the former statements in BS5973 that certain types of scaffold "may be constructed ... without calculations" or "other forms of scaffold should be subject to design". All scaffold is designed, whether that design exists on paper or not, and a modification to it is designing, even if the modification is an oral instruction. You might also like to refer to BS5975 comments on CDM: "Designers [the term includes temporary works engineers (including those designing auxiliary structures, earthworks supports, sheet piling, piling/crane platforms, spreader plates and grillages for cranes and other lifting equipment, formwork, falsework, backpropping, façade retention schemes, needling schemes and scaffolding etc.)]" and "The term “design” within the Regulations includes amongst other terms the word “specification”. On this basis anyone who specifies a method of working/construction is a designer and has to be aware of their responsibilities under the Regulations."
smith6720  
#4 Posted : 18 January 2013 10:49:43(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
smith6720

I think we are being distracted from the real issue, with the site manager instructing the scaffolder to remove the handrail, has he left a gap where someone could fall?? if this is the case, stop any work in this area until operatives are in a position where they cant fall. Whether it falls under CDM is irrelevent at this time. That can be addressed later with an investigation as to why the site manager felt the need to remove the handrail. maybe there is no gap between the structures, and no fall from height by leaving the guard rail off. There is many tangients that we can go off in here, but without the full facts thats excactly what it is. In my opinion!!
achrn  
#5 Posted : 18 January 2013 10:56:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

smith6720 wrote:
I think we are being distracted from the real issue, with the site manager instructing the scaffolder to remove the handrail, has he left a gap where someone could fall??
The OP implied that the immediate hazard and the fact that people could fall has been tackled:
Quote:
I advised him he had contravened WAH 2005
I think it's reasonable to assume that the OP, being aware of WAH, is aware of the need to take action to deal with immediate danger. I think it's pointless to assume that every time anyone asks a specific question about something on the forum, then they must have failed to address everything else related to the hazard as well.
ADALE  
#6 Posted : 18 January 2013 11:48:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ADALE

Well Ladies and gents, sorry for my delay, but very valid points, though I wouldn't be in a rush to quote BS 5973 as it was superceeded many years ago now by BS En 12811-1 for tube and fittings and 12810-1 for prefab' components ( otherwise known as system). That aside, as rightly pointed out he instructed an alternate design that did, yes, expose brick layers to a fall where his only measure was to install fall protection in the form of bags (which were never actually installed) which doesn't satisfy the principals of prevention highlighted in the site or company H&S policy. I have received notice that on reviewing my investigation report, which mentioned other non-conformances, the said manager has received disciplinary actions after the company H&S manager attended site and found all my observation to be correct and still outstanding. No winners, but a little justice and hopefully lessons learned before harm actually occurs. Thanks for all the help - oh and I did eventually find the paragraphs within L144 before I sent the report off. but again, many thanks
achrn  
#7 Posted : 18 January 2013 14:07:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

ADALE wrote:
I wouldn't be in a rush to quote BS 5973 as it was superceeded many years ago now
Indeed, but the point is that some still think that certain 'simple' sorts of scaffold do not require designing, do not have a design, and do not have a designer, because 5973 said that other forms of scaffold require design (the implication being that those which are not other types do not require a design). The fact that it is superseded is why I said FORMER comments in the standard.
ADALE  
#8 Posted : 19 January 2013 06:55:27(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ADALE

Apologies for the oversight achrn, but that would have little bearing in this instance as true as you statement is. The fact most NHBC (if not all) site mgt undertake scaffold appreciation or inspection courses ensure they're aware that tg20:08 ( which will be replaced by tg20:13 in march) is the translation of bs en 12811-1 and clearly states all scaffolds are designed, simply that nqv level 2 scaffolds ( basic) follow a generic design variation. That is the single biggest reason BS 5973 was repealed as far as I am aware.
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