Rank: Forum user 
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Hi Folks,
I thought this was easy until I tried to write it definitively for my operational managers!
What makes someone competent to undertake work on low voltage circuits in an industrial setting i.e. not a domestic setting? Trying to solve this has been tricky but not as hard as defining what makes someone competent to supervise those working on electrical systems (Reg 16 EAW Regs)!
First thoughts are having undergone training to the 17th Edition etc, but in terms of City and Guilds or similar qualifications, I find myself getting confused!
I would be grateful if someone could just draw me a picture! Yes I am thick! I just feel I've spent enough time trying to research this that I need to ask for some help; there must be someone out there that can sum it up for me in a nutshell?
What surprised me was when I asked a few electrical engineers, I got a few differing answers!
Here's hoping!
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Are we talking about parts of the fixed wiring installation under BS7671, or machinery systems which are not covered by BS7671?
Competence in supervision is easy, IF you have suitably competent electrical staff, the supervisor does not necessarily need to be "more" qualified/competent, they can be of any skill level as long as they supervise competently.
Perhaps one of the senior electrical staff can be used to make the final call on electrical issues?
Or you simply have competent electrical staff who can make the final call on electrical stuff, and ensure that your supervisor abides by their decisions.
Just use the supervisor as their workload manager?
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Rank: Super forum user 
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You are not thick Mr Hill walker, far from it mate :-)
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Rank: Super forum user
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Wainrightbanger.
Sure if you ask a common safety bod about electrical safety you will be more confused indeed.
I would ask Zimmy or the other Electrical brain - Colin Reeve?
They will tell it it you straight.
Jon
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Competence = SKATEL.
Skills, Knowledge, Attitude, Training, Education & knowing Limitations.
Incorporate this into some type of 'interview' (half hourish) with your Sparkies and if in your opinion (or joint opinion if carried out with fellow Manager) they can show the above, appoint in writing and jobs a good un.
Like all careers I'm sure Electricians can take differing routes as far as qualifications alone go so if your looking for 1 certificate to be flashed before your eyes it may not be that simple but should not be too hard either if your guys/gals can demonstrate their competence as above.
If you are a common safety bod you will not be able to interrogate them fully about the magic stuff that lives in walls but why should you be able to? You need to demonstrate that you have a system in place that you are happy with and does not allow any Tom, Dick, Harry to mess with the juice.
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Rank: Forum user
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Thanks for the input so far guys, much appreciated.
Still no clearer though - you see Zimmy, I am thick!
Supervision bit I've got - the site FM Manager should be able to do that, caveats accepted!
The bloke with the tools though - this I'm struggling with. The definitive answer that keeps eluding me is perhaps because when I reflect back on my early career as a process development engineer in the chemical industry there was a clear line of competence. To be competent to work on, develop and operate chemical plant, you had to be competent. This might involve a 5 year apprenticeship, attaining ONC and HNC in a technical subject, chemistry, chemical engineering or a degree in a similar, before you could go "solo". Obviously at points along the way, you would attain the competency to do things such as sample taking, analysis etc etc. Competency might not follow this course precisely, but it would involve aspects of that.
Now with electricians working on LV systems (not machinery), I can't see a pathway towards competence. Me being thick again. All I'm after really is the route options someone could take before they were deemed competent to undertake LV works e.g. Apprenticeship + C&G Level xxx, So many years experience + Qualification x etc etc. In other words, what would you expect them to have done?
That way, when we monitor our FM providers risk control approach towards electrical work, we can at least have a head start on asking the right question. Yes, we do have a procurement route - this is more about keeping a finger on the pulse.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Zimmy got a ban. Will writwe tonight W.
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Rank: Forum user
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This may be of assistance for those that can attend... I realise this is short notice but if you are in a position to attend then our District is meeting at Dunchurch (Near Rugby) in the evening on 14th Feb. in. We have a guest speaker (Bill Bates HM Principal Specialist Electrical Inspector) who is delivering a presentation on 'Electrical Installations and Appliances Testing'... All welcome, buffet provided in case it means you missing your dinner! Midlands, East District link: http://www.iosh.co.uk/br...ricts/east_district.aspx
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Rank: Forum user
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Thanks to some personal messages and a bit more trawling, I think I'm somewhere nearer my target of being able to provide a local manager with some guidance on the kind of evidence an electrician should be able to provide to demonstrate some basic competence around working on LV systems in a non-domestic premises.
I think this looks a bit like this:
Apprenticeship, including formal qualification – see below;
Two years practical experience + formal qualification – see below;
City & Guilds (C&G) 2330 Level 2 and/or 3 (now being replaced/has been replaced with 2365):
C&G 2357;
G&G 2365 Level 2 and/or 3 (if qualifying later than September 2012);
C&G 2382 (17th Edition).
Recognise that this is not exhaustive but it is the sort of thing you'd expect to see. Please do correct me if I've got this wrong......! Also recognise that this limits their work, further evidence of training required if they're going to get involved in inspection etc.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Happy with
Time served in the area of industrial.
17th
2391
But, as may be seen in the not too distant future the NICEIC/ECA et al and including the HSE along with IOSH itself may have to take a long hard look at the definition of competence and the people who judge it and make the call.
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Rank: Super forum user
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To be honest my dear Hillwalker, to assess a persons electrical competence is not an easy task. Best done with a D32/33 or A1 under your belt. That and an understanding of electrical installations. You will need to gather evidence of this mystical term from various sources. You will need to look at not only qualifications and experience but dig deeper into the 'CV'. Please, please keep we away from anyone not time served as some kitchen fitters and now 'qualified' to carry out electrical work under Part P.
Most will purport to be skilled but in truth these 'qualifications' are a major joke in the electrical trade. The word JOKE is of course not funny! There are now too many Mickey Mouse electricians with Donald Duck qualifications. I have made this point on another forum and I am not alone in this point of view. Every electrician who is 'switched on' (not pun here) will tell you the same thing. I have to say that the place is now swamped with European electricians and the quality of workmanship has to be seen to be believed. Look at the free mag Professional Electrician for proof of this.
So perhaps it is no wonder that when I hear non electrical people giving advice on electrical 'competence' my hair curl (not to mention my lip).
I am, as ever, willing to help off-forum so feel free to look me up. Stick a (Tech IOSH) on the end of my name and pop into linkedin.
Rob
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Rank: Super forum user
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I hope that helped Dear Hillwalker
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Rank: Super forum user
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Quote So perhaps it is no wonder that when I hear non electrical people giving advice on electrical 'competence' my hair curl (not to mention my lip).
Spot on Zimmy. It staggers me too, not only on electrical competence but in other disciplines as well.
Jon
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Rank: Super forum user
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