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Merrison17687  
#1 Posted : 06 February 2013 17:26:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Merrison17687

I am just pulling together a risk assessment training package and to get away from documenting trivial risks want to specify what the MHSWRegs call significant risks? I know all organisations will differ but am looking for some further interpretation.
Clairel  
#2 Posted : 06 February 2013 18:10:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Clairel

Oh dear. An honourable pusuit in theory, as I am very vocal on sensible risk assessment and risk management. However, based on the arguments on this forum on what is and was isn't a significant risk I suspect you will find no agreement here.

Personally, having been trained by the HSE, I have quite a sensible approach based on not assessing every day risks, such as making and carrying a cup of tea. But to such statements I will always be accused of not taking the risk of a scalding hot drinks seriously enough!

So, you have to make your own mind up on this one I'm afraid.
Jane Blunt  
#3 Posted : 06 February 2013 19:28:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jane Blunt

Are there any risks at your workplace that cause you loss of sleep because you have doubts about how they are being managed? Use those.
Ron Hunter  
#4 Posted : 06 February 2013 19:35:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

I thought the old yardstick still held true. We do not consider every-day or trivial issues unless the work activity compounds that risk.
Thus Starbucks doesn't get away with ignoring scalding issues (neither do those involved with care of vulnerable groups).
Crossing the road becomes an issue for those placing signage on high speed roads, etc.
?
JJ Prendergast  
#5 Posted : 06 February 2013 19:46:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JJ Prendergast

I work on the theory that if there is a set of particular regulations, then there are significant risks to be addressed.

As a secondary approach if there is an HSE guidance book written about a particular topic, and applicable to your company/work activities then probably best to investigate further
Merrison17687  
#6 Posted : 06 February 2013 20:32:46(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Merrison17687

Thanks for responses and assumed as much really, yes the MHSW regs to say discount everyday risks "Insignificant risks can usually be ignored, as can risks arising from routine activities associated with life in general".

Working for an American company in the petrochem Industry we tend to be risk averse and try to cover every eventuality, so will have to formalise my training package to cover both aspects.
Kim Hedges  
#7 Posted : 07 February 2013 00:05:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kim Hedges

I've worked for a large US company too, their way of doing this was to chop down forests to make mountains of paperwork, which everybody spent about 6 hours signing during initial indoctrination!

Talk about the tick box culture!
PHurley  
#8 Posted : 07 February 2013 04:50:24(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
PHurley

Agree with the sentiments regarding everyday activities, there are clear definitions and guidelines regarding this and what constitutes a work place hazard with risks requiring assessment and subsequent control. What I always keep in mind is what is "reasonable". Is it "reasonable" to undertake a risk assessment and give training to all office staff on how to safely make a cup of tea? No. Is it reasonable to establish various controls (sound proof booths, worker rotation, ear defenders) for operators in a block factory where the noise levels is consistently above 85dB(A)? Yes.

damelcfc  
#9 Posted : 07 February 2013 08:08:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
damelcfc

I was taught to always ignore things associated with life itself.
Some of the examples above highlight this enough already without me adding any more but just sense check that they really are not pertinent to your activities (the crossing of a road example if you employ 'road crossers')
Steveeckersley  
#10 Posted : 07 February 2013 09:23:29(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Steveeckersley

To muddy waters the question is what risk are you assessing?
The actual task/ The system/the business?
Is it not how you define the RA process that is the starting point and as others have said what is significant to one company may not be significant to another if it isnt high profile in the business.
What gets more complicated is where you have an organisation like a public body say for instance the Council or NHS where the business is very diverse. DEpending on what sector of the body you are working in might have an effect but due to resource shortages everybody is fighting to say their risk is more significant than another because it directly affects them. Which is the more significant risk. Undertaking Brain surgery or a Community Nurse visiting an elderly patient at night in a known drug and violent area where serious injury has been sustained in the past by NHS workers?
I would develop a hazard register first then carry out some form of RA and then undertake a cost versus risk analysis.
I remember that I was taught by an Australian chap a formula which included as well as the usual elements, The number of people exposed and the maxiumum probable loss. In essence he was moneyterising risk!
So If the total cost of someone falling and being killed was say 2 million but 5 thousand people had bad backs due to work in the organisation that totalled a cost of 15 million which is the more significant risk?
Food for thought!
damelcfc  
#11 Posted : 07 February 2013 09:43:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
damelcfc

Steve - your extra bits to consider are quite normal, an extra couple of columns 'population exposed' and 'frequency of exposure' can often prioritise a L v S quantified assessment when you have a lot of actions or 'risks' that are the same score/level and want to know where you should go 1st.
Kate  
#12 Posted : 07 February 2013 09:58:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

Surely number of people exposed and frequency of exposure are part of the likelihood?
Steveeckersley  
#13 Posted : 07 February 2013 09:58:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Steveeckersley

damelcfc wrote:
Steve - your extra bits to consider are quite normal, an extra couple of columns 'population exposed' and 'frequency of exposure' can often prioritise a L v S quantified assessment when you have a lot of actions or 'risks' that are the same score/level and want to know where you should go 1st.

I agree but is the Maximum probable loss highlighted in the national matrix- I dont think so!
P.S I shall be at the Blackpool V Leicester game on the 23rd. The risk of injury to Leicester players is very high due to the Bloomfield road pitch being a cabbage patch!
Best wishes
Steve
damelcfc  
#14 Posted : 07 February 2013 10:10:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
damelcfc

Kate wrote:
Surely number of people exposed and frequency of exposure are part of the likelihood?


See your point but not always Kate - the likelihood of the tiger getting out of the cage is one thing, how many people will be in the room for his dinner at 12:00 sharp may differ.
Gunner1  
#15 Posted : 07 February 2013 10:46:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Gunner1

Is there potential for harm to be caused? If the answer is 'yes' treat as significant risk.
achrn  
#16 Posted : 07 February 2013 11:02:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Gunner1 wrote:
Is there potential for harm to be caused? If the answer is 'yes' treat as significant risk.


So you would put 'getting scalded by tea' on every risk assessment then?
Kate  
#17 Posted : 07 February 2013 11:06:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

If the tiger is satisfied after eating one person, then the number of people around influences the likelihood of someone being eaten. If he is going to eat as many as possible, then the number of people around influences the severity. Either way it's not a separate consideration outside likelihood and severity. The event isn't the tiger escaping, but the tiger eating someone. The cage is a control measure.
HSSnail  
#18 Posted : 07 February 2013 11:10:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
HSSnail

Good Luck if you find a definitive answer I pl;ease share.

There's some good advice already here but to expand an what ClareL and others have said I would agree completely that you don't need a risk assessment for someone making a few cups of tea in an office but in a restaurant situation where staff are expected to carry trays of hot food and boiling water up and down starts as part of their job activity I would see it as a significant risk.
damelcfc  
#19 Posted : 07 February 2013 11:37:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
damelcfc

Yes, lets agree to disagree then Kate.

a) In my experience of companies who (for example) use a 3x3 matrix loads of things sit in the middle and by adding further multipliers this helps prioritization.

b) Although you never risk assess on a worse case scenario, for this example please use death as the possible severity or '3' or '5' or whatever - so your initial assessment will give you a 'score' or a 'risk rating' or 'red' or 'high' - whatever. You have already maxed out your 'severity' and so if said tiger ate 1, 3 , 5 or 100 people you could add a multiplyer of 1, 1.25, 1.5, 2 because of the population exposed/at risk.

killing 1500 people will always be worse than killing 1.


Its only an option for people to consider when they have multiple assessments of the same level with outstanding actions and faced with the question of what should we tackle first? I'd always say well if x went wrong we take out 30 people, if y, then its just Bob in the Warehouse so do x first please.
Kate  
#20 Posted : 07 February 2013 12:00:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

If you are dealing with a high hazard process where there really is a possibility of killing 1500 people in a single event, then you wouldn't use a 3 x 3 matrix.

If a 3 x 3 matrix isn't capturing the severities or prioritising the rankings of the events being assessed, then it's not adequate to the job and that's why further analysis is found to be needed. You could equally achieve that by using a larger matrix that contains the distinctions you need.

My point is that it all does come from the likelihood and severity of the event, whatever route you take to arrive at the final ranking.
Gunner1  
#21 Posted : 08 February 2013 09:36:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Gunner1

achrn wrote:
Gunner1 wrote:
Is there potential for harm to be caused? If the answer is 'yes' treat as significant risk.


So you would put 'getting scalded by tea' on every risk assessment then?


No, not on every risk assessment and probaly not where making a cup of tea tea is concerned. However, if there is a hazard presented and a risk of scalding then there is potential for harm. Also, just as a matter of interest, I have investigated numerous incidents of scalding sustained through knocking over the tea urn / the tea lady transferring a tea urn onto her trolley and in doing so dropped the urn and the just boiled contents onto her legs and feet which were badly scalded.

I was probaly not specific enough with my post but also taking into account most H&S professionals (if I can call us that) take the sensible approach when assessing high risk areas of the workplace where there is a potential for harm through the hazards / activities of the particular area of work.
Phil Grace  
#22 Posted : 08 February 2013 09:46:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Phil Grace

Now here is an interesting case "hot off the press"...

http://www.lexology.com/contributors/786/

Look up the case under the title "Employer not liable for simple everyday acts"

Phil
boblewis  
#23 Posted : 08 February 2013 10:20:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

I am reminded of the RA for traveling on aircraft concerning hijack by bombers the control measure is to carry your own bomb as the likelihood of two indepoendent persons with bombs on the same aircraft is very low. It is Friday.

Back to the post I find American based companies tend to be very risk averse BUT if you can create a simple nemonic process for everyday risks then this can lead to greater staff involvement which then gives much more kudos for the originator among senior managers.

The terms sigificant and insignificant are very subjective and people often disagree on what is which. Witness the threads above. But please be careful not to say RA is just common sense - it may be for everyday risks but not beyond that. Get your students/attendees to argue this problem out but do not spoon feed your thoughts to them. They are then more likely to remember the difference.

Bob
chris42  
#24 Posted : 08 February 2013 12:30:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Phil Grace wrote:
Now here is an interesting case "hot off the press"...

http://www.lexology.com/contributors/786/

Look up the case under the title "Employer not liable for simple everyday acts"

Phil


I can understand there being no liability for her just falling off the stool, but he fact she had to stand on tip toe suggests the equipment supplied was not fit for purpose. I would have been nice to have a bit more of the storey and exactly what the court said. I wonder if there was an expectation that the person when finding they could not reach should have not continued the activity in that way.
Jake  
#25 Posted : 08 February 2013 12:37:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

chris42 wrote:
Phil Grace wrote:
Now here is an interesting case "hot off the press"...

http://www.lexology.com/contributors/786/

Look up the case under the title "Employer not liable for simple everyday acts"

Phil


I can understand there being no liability for her just falling off the stool, but he fact she had to stand on tip toe suggests the equipment supplied was not fit for purpose. I would have been nice to have a bit more of the storey and exactly what the court said. I wonder if there was an expectation that the person when finding they could not reach should have not continued the activity in that way.


Insufficient detail provided though (as you allude to), we don't know what equipment was available for use, whether the items should have be stored where they are, whether it was common for staff to request assistance etc.

To me it seems strange as we've had a similar case in the past and the case went the other way, no training for the "simple, everyday" equipment used therefore liable and in our case the IP wasn't even tip-toeing.
Ron Hunter  
#26 Posted : 08 February 2013 12:44:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Phil Grace wrote:
Now here is an interesting case "hot off the press"...

http://www.lexology.com/contributors/786/

Look up the case under the title "Employer not liable for simple everyday acts"

Phil

I doubt the HSE would agree with that statement in this instance and there's no way I'd use it as an example of employer immunity. IMHO the "simple, everday act" of retrieving documents requires a bit more consideration of safe access and egress in the circumstance described.
A Kurdziel  
#27 Posted : 08 February 2013 14:11:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Sorry Phil
Had a look at the link and I think that this is a Hong Kong case not a UK law case as the case reference looks wrong.
Phil Grace  
#28 Posted : 08 February 2013 14:31:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Phil Grace

AK,
Well spotted - my eyes glazed over when I saw the UK tag but having looked at that well know search engine.... the Success Employment Agency is based in Hong Kong. Apologies for settting us all off on a wild goose chase.

Now here's a question:

What was legal system in HK? I'll bet it used to be based on UK law.... prior to handing back
What is it now? Sounds as if they still have a ngeligence based approach for civil cases..?

As for wishing for more detail - don't we always want that? just goes go show that for (the bulk) of unreported cases a short legal summary prepared by lawyers is never sufficient for us risk management types!! And there is a message there for all those who post seeking "case law"

Very few cases go to court
Generally those that have a point of law to prove/decide
and
Whilst there may be general issue at stake the relevance may be limited

Phil
smitch  
#29 Posted : 08 February 2013 15:38:19(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
smitch

Granted its not that relevant, but more info on the Hong Kong case can be found at:

http://legalref.judiciar...DIS=85008&currpage=T
A Kurdziel  
#30 Posted : 08 February 2013 15:51:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

In theory Hong Kong law is still based in English Common law BUT this has evolved in it’s own way. Occasionally court rulings from one system are treated as a persuasive precedent by another but I guess this one won’t be (in England at least)
Graham Bullough  
#31 Posted : 08 February 2013 18:09:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

The very low likelihood of two independent persons with bombs travelling on the same aircraft mentioned by boblewis at #23 has a logic (?!) similar to that of Private Baldrick in BBC TV's poignant comedy series "Blackadder Goes Forth" (1989) in the scene where he carves his name on a bullet. When Captain Blackadder asks what he is doing, Baldrick explains his cunning plan based on the fatalistic saying among British troops during World War One that "somewhere there's a bullet with your name on it". Baldrick continued that if he owned the bullet with his name on it, he'll never get hit by it, and "the chances of there being two bullets with my name on it are very small indeed."

p.s. This observation is offered wholly irrespective of the fact that today happens to be a Friday. Humour should be enjoyed whenever appropriate 24/7/365, not just on Fridays!
boblewis  
#32 Posted : 10 February 2013 11:35:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
boblewis

Grahem

RA is just common sense though isn't it:-)

Unfortunately politics, culture and ability enter the equation somewhere. Do you remember the pictures of the 1920-30s from the US where native American people were employed as steel erectors because they had no fear of heights or death?

Bob
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