Rank: Forum user
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Morning all,
has anyone had to give a statement to the HSE a Voluntary statement under Section 9 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967?
Any tips on how this is carried out and what an employee should or should not say?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Rank: Forum user
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Ian.Blenkharn wrote:The truth!
Ian that goes without saying...
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Rank: Super forum user
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Whilst you should of course be open, truthful and co-operative, I have always been advised to check with the lawyers how open one can/should be. Much depends on the senario however some documentation or some things you reveal could be subject to legal privilege and can therefore be legally witheld. However having said that co-operation is the best approach.
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Rank: Super forum user
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If the statement is based upon any questions which the HSE have raised, make sure that you have an accurate record of the exact questions that they have asked. Ask the inspector to put their question in writing, which the inspector will not like as it is time consuming, but it is essential that you have this record to show the balance of your answer.
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Rank: Super forum user
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A good morning to you too!
I have had the dubious pleasure of being interviewed by the HSE under S9 on more than one occasion.
If you look on the HSE's own site, they have a very detailed section on what is & what is not required, from their perspective.
Seek legal advice before you are interviewed, but it must be from an independent solicitor, not the company's own as there could be a conflict of interest.
Happy for us to discuss this as a PM rather than in an open forum.
Zyggy
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Rank: Forum user
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zyggy wrote:A good morning to you too!
I have had the dubious pleasure of being interviewed by the HSE under S9 on more than one occasion.
If you look on the HSE's own site, they have a very detailed section on what is & what is not required, from their perspective.
Seek legal advice before you are interviewed, but it must be from an independent solicitor, not the company's own as there could be a conflict of interest.
Happy for us to discuss this as a PM rather than in an open forum.
Zyggy
Hi Zyggy PM sent
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Rank: Super forum user
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Morning
Based on what I have been told by lawyers a Section 9 interview can be described a voluntary interview, where you are helping the authorities with the their enquiries. It is not aimed at finding out if you are personally liable for any wrong doing. According to the guidance from the HSE to it’s own inspectors section 9 interviews should not be used as evidence against an individual in court ( that is what an interview under PACE is for) BUT talking to the lawyers, the HSE have been allowed to use statements in court taken during a section 9 interview as evidence against an individual. So be careful.
As it is a voluntary interview and it not primarily intended to catch the person being interviewed it is usefully not recorded apart from contemporaneous written notes. You are not usually allowed to bring a lawyer or friend along as again it’s not about you but about what happened. One thing that also needs to be clear before you are interviewed is whether you are being interviewed in a personal capacity or on behalf of the employer.
You should also remember that this interview is voluntary and you do not have to answer any questions if you do not want to. If the interview is made under section Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 Section 20 (j) you are required (ie you must answer ) any questions as along as they do not incriminate yourself.
If you are worried contact a lawyer to advise you. Most unions will arrange for this if you need it rather than relying on the company lawyer.
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Rank: Forum user
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In a slightly different context: I'm due to be interviewed by the Police in a few weeks under section 9 as a witness in a potential criminal case.
As a witness to a criminal act/ommission, is it advisable to seek legal advice or is there only a need to do that if I am a suspect? Should I allow myself to be told what to say and what not to say by someone with different interests?
Can I ask for an accurate record of the exact questions that they have asked? Surely, if I do not like the comment in a statement I just ask for it to be changed? What is the benefit of having the questions written down? What do I say if they refuse?
Do I need to check if something is legal privilege? Or will any legally privileged document be drafted for the sole purpose of aiding the legal team and unlikely to be anything I have in my possession?
No-one (at least the law-abiding among us) would dream of doing these in a police interview so what is the difference?
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Rank: Super forum user
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You're all being completely paranoid probably becuase you don't inderstand what context they are used in.
If an inspector thinks a case may go to court (I stress MAY) then they will need to collect evidence. During the course of their investigations they will need to speak to witnesses or other key personnel about a variety of things' Rather than repeat these 'chats' they will just put it in a witness statement, just in case. The statement can be written by the 'witness' but is usually written by the inspector becuase it is easier that way. However, the inspector will be writing down what the witness says not what the inspector wants to say. The witness will then read the statement (or have it read back to them) and then sign to say that is a true reflection of what they have said. They can (and do) change anything the are not happy wiht before signing.
The information absolutely cannot be used against them in a court because a person would have to be questioned under caution for that to happen. It is evidence in the case not evidence against that individual. In fact if during the interview the inspector thinks that the perosn may be incriminating themselves then the have to stop that interview and caution them.
They really are nothing to worry about.
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Rank: Super forum user
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A friend of mine a few years ago who was a H&S Adviser in the good old days made one following an accident at his workplace where an Employee fractured a bone.
He said that they made him feel like a criminal during their investigation (He understood that the truth had to be arrived at but still felt really upset during the process) and it's not something he wanted to experience again. I think he also asked for a copy of his statement but was refused - not sure if they can do this or not though as I haven't checked.
There is a load of info on the HSE website about statements and evidence so have a look there if you haven't already.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Dean Elliot wrote:In a slightly different context: I'm due to be interviewed by the Police in a few weeks under section 9 as a witness in a potential criminal case.
As a witness to a criminal act/ommission, is it advisable to seek legal advice or is there only a need to do that if I am a suspect? Should I allow myself to be told what to say and what not to say by someone with different interests?
Can I ask for an accurate record of the exact questions that they have asked? Surely, if I do not like the comment in a statement I just ask for it to be changed? What is the benefit of having the questions written down? What do I say if they refuse?
Do I need to check if something is legal privilege? Or will any legally privileged document be drafted for the sole purpose of aiding the legal team and unlikely to be anything I have in my possession?
No-one (at least the law-abiding among us) would dream of doing these in a police interview so what is the difference?
As a witness you are not (I believe) entitled to a copy of the statement (this is based on the one occasion when I was interviewed as a witness by the HSE some years ago). Once you have made a statement and the prosecution decide to use it in court, the defence are entitled to challenge that statement and bring you into court to cross-examine you on the statement you made (I have been lucky and have never had to do that).
As I said this sort of statement is about the facts of the case and is not about getting you to confess to any wrong doing.
There was an article about this in SHP a few years ago. Might be worth looking it up
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Rank: Super forum user
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Just to clarify above - slightly went off topic - about their investigation. They were fine with him taking the statement and it is exactly as Clairel has written.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Interesting topic
Would you be allowed to also write down your responses during the interview (and questions) and / or actually record the interview for yourself ?
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chris42 wrote:Interesting topic
Would you be allowed to also write down your responses during the interview (and questions) and / or actually record the interview for yourself ?
From experience you should be provide with your statement which you should then read through to ensure it reflects what you have said and countersign each page(side).
Once assisted police in an investigation another organization to the one I was working for, regarding the illness of a visitor to our site, who'd been ill before the visit, and died a little while after.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Building on what Claire has said, a witness statement cannot be used in evidence against an individual, unless they have been cautioned the evidence may be used... Furthermore, if during the course of a witness statement it is clear the person may incriminate themselves, then the statement must cease, the person cautioned and a new statement began.
There is more recent legislation regarding witness statements pursuant to the Criminal Procedure Rules 2012 (Part 27) which is fresh off the press, which I am currently reviewing.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Although a voluntary statement under section 9 is just a means for the HSE to get more information, it is not always a happy experience. When I was asked to give a statement ( it was some years ago before I was doing H&S and was a bit naive) it as not made clear to me that this process was entirely voluntary and that I could walk out when ever I wanted to to. Further more the questions were often directed at me and were about what I had done, and again it was not made clear that the statement could not be used against me. Finally I let slip some home truths about the organisation I work for and I was worried that they might come back to haunt me if my employer ever read them.
So giving a formal statement to the inspectors is not always straight forward. Perhaps it depends in the inspectors.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Claire, sorry, it's nothing to do with being paranoid, just past experience!
During an investigation by the HSE I was warned that if I did not give a voluntary statement, then he would use S20 to compel me!
This ended up with legal advice being taken & a complaint made to a Principal Inspector (nb I never actually refused to give a statement, but just wanted a copy which he was refusing to give despite contrary advice given by the HSE).
I stand by my original posting, seek external legal advice before any such interviews.
Zyggy
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Rank: Super forum user
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SPR wrote:Ian.Blenkharn wrote:The truth!
Ian that goes without saying...
So, although it may "go without saying", some here seem to have a different opinion!
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Rank: Super forum user
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The truth can be phrased in many different ways and recorded in many further ways, and given quite different inflexions when read aloud, such as in court.
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As well as David’s most appropriate point (#20), people may also worry that they could inadvertently further incriminate the company they are working for; granted they should tell the truth, but it is possible for people (particularly if feeling stressed/under pressure whilst proving a witness statement) to inadvertently answer questions with an answers to questions that have not been asked, if you get my drift.
I have been in a position whereby I was questioned under Section 20, and whilst I was aware that I could not incriminate myself, I was also careful not to provide information that was not asked for. Take this as the right or wrong stance but as me old mum used to say “son try to avoid biting the hand that feeds you”; so IMHO Ziggy’s advice (#6) could also be prudent.
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Ian.Blenkharn wrote:SPR wrote:Ian.Blenkharn wrote:The truth!
Ian that goes without saying...
So, although it may "go without saying", some here seem to have a different opinion!
YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!
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Rank: Super forum user
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There is no need to SHOUT.
Nor is there any need to sink to the use of such a rude, abusive and wholly unprofessional response.
I assume, therefore, that the sobriquet says it all.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Zyggy
Solicitors have methods of erecting chinese walls to prevent such claimed conflicts and they do work and are approved by the law society much to the chagrin of the HSE who have tried to claim this hoary old chestnut of conflict of interest and failed before the courts.
It really is expensive to get a solicitor as good as that offered by most firms. Why not get the protocol sorted?
Bob
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Rank: Super forum user
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Bob,
The conflict of interest is usually related to internal investigations that may or may not be carried out involving employees & involving the in-house team.
At all my previous employers, this was the way that these matters were dealt with, & in all honesty, health & safety legislation is quite a specialist field & in my experience, unusual to find a company solicitor with these competencies.
In fact, it was usually me who advised them on H&S legal matters!
Zyggy
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