The moderating team do not moderate for the accuracy, technical or otherwise, of any contributions to these forums. We appreciate that in these circumstances some contributors may feel that others have strayed far beyond their areas of competence or expertise and wish to challenge or criticise their approach. This often leads to moderating action being required due to the personal nature, style or approach of that response. Contrary to popular belief we, as a team, genuinely like to see the forum as free from moderating actions as possible. So, it was with some interest that we noted this week that the revised IOSH Code of Conduct for IOSH members now includes some specific guidance on dealing with disagreements. Guidance point 3.2. ‘As an occupational safety and health professional, disagreements will happen from time to time. To avoid making disagreements personal, it is important to remember that is often acceptable to criticise ideas but often unacceptable to criticise individuals, particularly in an offensive manner. Respecting other people includes behaving in an appropriate manner. Inappropriate behaviour includes the use of foul language or acting in an intimidating or threatening way.’ For those users not governed by the Code of Conduct then Forum Rule 2 also requires ‘When using the forums you are expected at all times to be polite and respectful towards all forum users including the Forum Moderators and IOSH employees.’ We are seeking the help of all users in keeping our moderating actions to a minimum and making these forums a friendly, supportive place. Therefore, we request that you always seek to express your concerns politely; preferably offering advice and guidance rather than simply judging others. Thank you for your support. IOSH Moderating Team

This thread prompts me to echo yet again the following points: 1. A good general rule for forum users (pseudonymous or otherwise) is not to write anything in postings in terms which they would not use when talking with someone face to face, e.g. at an IOSH meeting. 2. The first page of thread listings should include a clear disclaimer. Forum users, especially newcomers and casual viewers, surely need to be advised/reminded that postings include individual opinions and contents which cannot be guaranteed as accurate. Therefore, reliance should not be placed on them when making decisions. Furthermore, though this discussion forum is hosted by the IOSH website, postings do not necessarily reflect the policies of IOSH as a professional body or the views of its members!

Can we have a forum rule about not using the forum to polish your ego

Do as I do, mutter under your breath but don't let your fingers do the talking - It's hard, when the advice is clearly sound and legal but not remotely implementable. This is the main area IMO of disagreement - a massive high percentage of us are technically excellent but some just live on another planet and only visit UK industrial coalface occasionally. Prioritisation, pragmatism, budget control, mitigation, risk retention (and calculated risk taking) are paramount in these dark times. Dead easy to do a Google search and see what the law says you should be doing - what are you actually doing.....In the real world

Claire, your definately missing a bunfight on one of the other threads.

The clue is cutting fluids.. take a dictionary...lots of big words being bandied about

That's where we disagree. I think the problem is that often people think the challenge is directed at them when it's actually directed at their advice. Fragile ego's.

Never in a million Years. Many more people working in Healthcare (than before). - That would have worked. Yes Manufacturing has moved abroad somewhat but is still mahoosively more populated than healthcare. In fact - heres a Friday thought/challenge - Health and Safety law/management was INVENTED for factories/manufacturing (does not matter the product). Any H&S professional working outside of/not dealing with a production facility (prod inc Construction/oil & Gas) need only a Managing Safely Certificate as the biggest daily challenge is; Is this RIDDOR or not? and... How far to sit from PC screen/New chair needed. Tongue in cheek slightly (Tis Friday). Have agood weekend all

I guess I should have said 'in the UK'. The NHS employs I don't know how many millions of people, and on top of that there's the whole panolpy of support organisations and so on. When I was young Sheffield had tens of thousands of steel-workers, now one plant makes more steel than the whole city did then, with less than 2,000 employees. And as for what we do in Healthcare, well, walk a mile in my shoes; DSE is the least of my worries (actually if you walk a mile in my shoes you'll have my shoes, and I won't be able to chase you....). And my point, which is about styles of communication, is just as valid in manufacturing as it is in service industries. It all depends whether you want discussion or argument. John

All I've been able to find is a percentage graph rather than absolute figures but that shows Health & Social Care at about 16% of the workforce, with manufacturing on about 12%, John

As a relative newcomer to these forums I was very much surprised about the lack of humour, yes there is a bit every now and then but most forums I use humour is used all the time to make a serious discussion more fun / tolerable. I was also surprised about the lack of diplomacy when dealing with other people’s opinions, certain people going straight into attack mode as opposed to putting your side of things and discussing the merits of each. I guess that is why this post is here. I am new to H&S and was hoping to use this site to help with my training and general understanding in a professional environment but to tell you the truth I am scared to dare ask something that may seem stupid. I am used to dealing with the general public and therefore restrict my vocabulary to a level that they can understand, in here it appears that big words are required to make you sound as though you know what you are talking about, is this a requirement within the H&S industry? Do I need to use big words to give the impression I am clever or do I use layman’s terms to get the message across clearly? I am very switched on about the environment around me and have a lot to offer the discussions on here but a bit reluctant to join in because the “clever” people may belittle my input. I remember reading someone using the fact that “the lack of tone and body language” can lead to misinterpretation, I tend to change my sentences to avoid this, most forums tend to as well, are we too professional to use emoteicons? There you go its posted now, do your worst ;-).

David, I have to agree, we ll know who will be diplomatic and who won't. My view is when I'm asking for advice I take the information and (sometimes) disregard the tone, John

oops. Should have quoted SteveM as now others have got in before me, so I'm out of sinc.

There was a comment in the Moderator's post about respecting others. Is that part of the new morality that demands respect at every turn, regardless? Or is respect earned? I believe in the latter

Ian, I think you misjudge what you describe as the new morality, though in truth it goes back at least as far as people like Socrates and Plato. It's respect for the person, and that doesn't entail respect for their beliefs or actions. We should challenge ideas, but I find it more productive if that's done without confrontation, John

Ian , I see respect as something entirely different. Classical education and all. You say that respect can only be earned not given as a right and you mock such an approach. For me it means being treated with consideration and to be willing to treat others the same way. Having regard for others feelings; treating them with dignity. Respect is, after all, the stuff upon which equity and justice are based. Respect is simply the opposite of contempt. One brings only conflict, the other brings a chance to improve. Which then is the more powerful and successful in life? I can clearly separate the difference between respect for intellect, knowledge and expertise from a simple respect for others. However far others may be from my ideals they still have a right to be treated with respect. Yes a right, not something to be earned. To confuse the two is incorrect. I may never respect or trust your opinions but I will always try to treat you with respect. I think that is the cornerstone of modern life and professional practice. P48

Are the terms 'beads and sandals' and 'wishy, washy HR brigade' the same as 'elf'n'safety'? Handy epithets that usually misrepresent reality.

It's a personal thing, but I don't automatically respect piety either

"Strangely, it's almost always "don't disrespect me", and rarely "please (or do) respect me", but that is another matter entirely. I blame the schools, but perhaps the parents have much to answer for in not sending the kids frequently enough" I suggest a look at school attendance figures first. Then a look at the music scene second. "disrespect" is a "colloquial" phrase much used in the "street" music scene and usually precedes violence towards the "disrespecter". In many cases of poor behaviour a look should be had at the general social attitude of those misbehaving. Which does not excuse bad behaviour but may lead to a better understanding of the route taken in same ! In many cases respect is not earned but assumed, either because of social standing or education. Personally, if someone is talking rubbish I could care less about their education or social standing. In all cases a politician gets no respect, but a lot of suspicion.

Zimmy is, in general, a bad tempered, thick Welsh Boyo with little grasp of the niceties of life. Not taken by the politically correct way of saying things and not at all a people person. However those who have taken the time to get to know me may or may not agree with the above. I was slammed here a few weeks back when bringing up a certain persons unnecessary death via electrocution (Unlawfully killed). Although I thought it was of some importance from a H&S point of view to put this on the forum I was slated for this action by the wonderful Whatshername. However, things have moved on and the matter is being looked at by people at the highest level. It seems that one or two people can make a difference if they stand up and shout!!!