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Blatchford900182  
#1 Posted : 25 March 2013 16:23:35(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Blatchford900182

All, A first time poster so be gentle..... I have a question on the final fire strategy of a block of flats (a number of flats over 3 floors with a public libary also on the first floor) currently under construction. My question: is it possible to have a fire strategy based on early detection of a fire without providing effective compartmentalisation for any (or all) of the following: bewteen flats between each floor between the flats and the escape routes (stairwell) In this case the early detection is based on independant smoke alarms (battery powered) situated in the flats (intended to be sold to private purchasers). The intention is to include a note in the purchasers documentation to make it clear that the smoke alarms must be maintained. I have been looking through BS9999 (I think risk profile C2) and the Approved Document B (building regs). This seems to clear that comparmentalisation is critical in multi occupancy flats and therefore all of the above compartments would need to provide for at least 60 minute fire breaks between all of the above.
mootoppers  
#2 Posted : 25 March 2013 16:36:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mootoppers

Hi Blatchford......thinking like a fire safety officer they would say: So you have no fire stops between flats, floors or between flats and escape routes - hmm, a quick example.....battery powered smoke alarm goes off in the ground floor flat but occupants on either of the other floors can't hear it and therefore have no 'early detection' option. The fire travels through the GF flat, moving through the building upwards and into the corridor, blocking the only exit from the upper flats. The fire and smoke now travel into the upstairs flats. Not much use therefore having the early detection in each separate residence, without the compartmentalisation. Agree that critical. Hope this helps.
PH2  
#3 Posted : 25 March 2013 16:43:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PH2

Hi and welcome to the forum. I don't have a lot of experience in Fire Safety but from what I gathered on the NEBOSH fire safety cert', I am very surprised that the local building control department approved this construction without suitable compartmentation, as you have described. In my opinion, it is essential. I suggest that you confirm with the designer / architect that Building Control Approval has been obtained. PH2
mootoppers  
#4 Posted : 25 March 2013 16:47:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
mootoppers

Blatchford - forgot to say welcome too!! PH2 has reminded me of my manners... ;)
messyshaw  
#5 Posted : 25 March 2013 18:47:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

Hi Blatchford & welcome: It is usual for 60 minute fire resistance between different occupancies and would expect a 30 min protected route from the upper floor. However, lots of bespoke solutions are now available using fire safety engineering principles which may allow a reduced compartmentation if other mitigating control measures are introduced. This would NOT mean battery powered domestic SD. Help me out here: 1) Are you sure that insufficient compartmentation exists? and if so how? 2) Are you sure that these are battery (only) smoke detectors as many developers are using BS5839-6 mains and battery back up smoke detectors now. 3) Is this a public library? 4) What's your involvement in this project?
Blatchford900182  
#6 Posted : 26 March 2013 08:40:49(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Blatchford900182

Thanks for the warm welcomes... Messshaw - in answer to your questions: 1) I have seen it - the previous contractors didn't install the fire protection as per the fire strategy design drawings. There is a void above the ceiling where smoke/fire could travel throughout the building. The walls and ceilings are drylined (plasterboard ceiling) so this would offer some protection from the flats to the void, however, this dryling was not orignally installed as part of the fire protection measures - therefore there are vents and other "gaps" in the plasterboard that are not intumecently sealed. 2) You are right they are main operated with battery back up. They are not linked - so if there was a fire in one flat the alarm would only go off in that flat. 3) Yes - public libary with flats attached 4) I am the safety manager working for a main contractor that has taken over this project from another contractor who were kicked off the project. As per 1 above we have found many problems where the previous builder hasn't built to the design, however, in this case we are concerned that the solution being proposed will leave the flats in an unsafe condition.
smith6720  
#7 Posted : 26 March 2013 10:04:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
smith6720

HI and welome I am not and expert in this, but i am interested in what you have said: 1. Are the flats occupied at the moment and is the library open? 2. A bit suprised in relation to suitable compartmentation, I would have considered this to be an ultimate requirement. 2. I have heard of a fire strategy called "phased evacuation" which involves, an on site building manager and the whole thing is electronically controlled. 3. Like you I am a safety manager with a working knowledge of requirements, in this case I would bring in specialsit help.
messyshaw  
#8 Posted : 26 March 2013 15:56:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
messyshaw

Blatchford: Thanks for the answers: Key to this is the fact that the builders didnt install to the specifications on the drawing. It's the drawings that would have been approved by the LA & fire service, so any standard below that would require re submission. The fire detection system appears to be fore the residents of the individual flats and I cannot see how they can form part of the overall mitigation/fire strategy to allow less fire resistance in the compartments It sounds like a right mess. What do you intend to do, as I would be singing like a canary to the relevant authorties. This might well be fraud (if the builders have saved cash by installing less) as well as a fire safety issue
Safety Smurf  
#9 Posted : 26 March 2013 18:26:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Blatchford, My sympathies go out to you. I have spent the last two years in a wrangle not dissimilar to yours where the builders are claiming the spec was changed mid-build and the architect mistakenly issued the old drawings as 'As Builts'. I won't offer my opinion as the matter is still under dispute. Needless to say I have typed much more and deleted it before posting.
Blatchford900182  
#10 Posted : 27 March 2013 08:05:25(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Blatchford900182

All, many thanks for your responses, the building is not yet occupied. It is difficult to see how the incorrect installation of the fire protection was not picked up before. From our point of view how we got to this situation is not relevent, my concern is installing fire protection to a recognised design that will meet the intent of the building regs (and so protects life in the event of a fire). It may be that the design team are currently working on a suitable solution and will produce this any day now.... we live in hope. Otherwise, we can only register our concerns with the relevent control authorities.
firesafety101  
#11 Posted : 28 March 2013 17:06:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Building Control will have to inspect and approve prior to occupation. Surely they will recognise the error and not provide final certificate?
NickH  
#12 Posted : 28 March 2013 17:31:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
NickH

Firesafety101 wrote:
Building Control will have to inspect and approve prior to occupation. Surely they will recognise the error and not provide final certificate?
I wouldn't bet my house on that. Bob Lewis may have something to add with regard to Building Control also...
Blatchford900182  
#13 Posted : 04 April 2013 17:18:59(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Blatchford900182

At the moment building contol don't seem particualrly fussed. One BC officer didn't seem to think that 6 inch gaps through what should have been fire stopped walls were an issue.. just adds to the sense of unease.
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