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mream  
#1 Posted : 19 June 2013 13:55:55(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
mream

Hi All, Jast after some advice. We had an accident whereby an employee fell down some stairs. They attended hospital on the day of the accident. The hospital said they had bruising on their leg and shoulder. The next day the employee returned to work and then worked for a futher 2 days before going to see their GP. Their GP has now signed them off for 7 days. Is this an over seven day injury and reportable under RIDDOR? Thanks
teh_boy  
#2 Posted : 19 June 2013 15:21:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

yes - if time off linked to an incident whist at work... "Subject to regulation 10, where a person at work is incapacitated for work of a kind which he might reasonably be expected to do, either under his contract of employment, or, if there is no such contract, in the normal course of his work, for more than **7** consecutive days" No mention of lag...
Mr.Flibble  
#3 Posted : 19 June 2013 15:27:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mr.Flibble

Or not depending on your point of view (see other on-going RIDDOR thread). Were the steps faulty? Were they wet, slippery? Was the employee carrying anything for work purposes at the time? If all of the above are No, I would say its not reportable. But others will say differently, again depends on your point of view as to what conistsuates 'An accident in connection to or arising from a work activity'
Mr.Flibble  
#4 Posted : 19 June 2013 15:28:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mr.Flibble

p.s. forgot to spell check before posting! :P
chris42  
#5 Posted : 19 June 2013 15:39:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Isn't the wording "more" than 7 days not including the day of the accident. So signed off for 7 days is not more than. Just a thought
mream  
#6 Posted : 19 June 2013 16:45:29(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
mream

Thanks for your responses. The stairs were not fautly, or wet but the employee was carrying a box of files. Having debated I am going to report the accident as an RIDDOR. Thanks again.
Canopener  
#7 Posted : 19 June 2013 19:55:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Assuming that the employee was able to carry out his normal work for the 2 days that he/she returned to work, then I would suggest that this is NOT CURRENTLY reportable. The reportable requirement is as Chris has already correctly pointed out, something along the lines of 'OVER 7 days NOT including the day of the accident'. I would hold fire on your reporting; unless it is too late!!!!
Nick-H  
#8 Posted : 19 June 2013 22:17:45(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Nick-H

As has been mentioned, it is over 7 days and not counting the day of the accident. However, remember that this does include weekend days or any other day on which the employee might not normally be at work. Also, note that the regulations also state the employee must be capable on their return of carrying out their normal duties. Hence, if the RTW meeting stipulates "light duties", then this could still mean you have a RIDDOR reportable even if they are at work. I also disagree with Mr Flibble. I don't think it matters whether the steps were faulty or whether the employee was carrying anything. They fell whilst at work and are now off work. That starts the clock ticking (not counting the days they were back at work, unless during those days it could be said that they were not able to carry out their normal work). The reason they fell is not pertinent as far as RIDDOR is concerned. It is very pertinent to your own investigation, of course. I agree with canopener. Don't report until you need to. I doubt that the person will return to work prior to the 7 days line (and for insurance purposes, they should not be at work unless their GP signs them fit for work), but you should only report it once the RIDDOR condition has been met. Unless you have a long history of these types of accidents happening, you also have nothing to fear from reporting it, HSE will more than likely simply add it to the many slips, trips and falls stats for the year and do nothing else.
Canopener  
#9 Posted : 19 June 2013 22:26:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Drs no longer have the option on Med 3 to sign people back to work, only that they are 'unfit' or 'may be fit'. The new DWP guidance also stresses that the Med 3 provides 'advice' (as it always has) and that concerns ELI shouldn't be a barrier to getting people to return to work before the end date of their certificate.
Kate  
#10 Posted : 20 June 2013 06:00:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

The reason they fell is very pertinent in RIDDOR as expressed both in the regulations themselves and the HSE guidance to them. That they were carrying a box is relevant.
Jake  
#11 Posted : 20 June 2013 08:51:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

Nick-H wrote:
I don't think it matters whether the steps were faulty or whether the employee was carrying anything. They fell whilst at work and are now off work. That starts the clock ticking (not counting the days they were back at work, unless during those days it could be said that they were not able to carry out their normal work). The reason they fell is not pertinent as far as RIDDOR is concerned. It is very pertinent to your own investigation, of course.
Please please read the RIDDOR acop, what you've stated here is categorically incorrect buddy. In determining if this would be RIDDOR you fundamentally need to identify if there were any defects with the steps and / or if the task being undertaken had an impact on events.
Canopener  
#12 Posted : 20 June 2013 13:58:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

Jake, you are absolutely right. The REASON that someone falls is not only 'pertinent' to RIDDOR, but it is actually a KEY consideration to whether or not you need to report under RIDDOR. This is explained with reasonable clarity in the guidance (I don't think it is an ACoP) and if I recall correctly from a previous post I made on another recent thread, para 34 onwards, which deals with 'arising out of or in connection with work'.
Jake  
#13 Posted : 20 June 2013 14:22:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

canopener wrote:
This is explained with reasonable clarity in the guidance (I don't think it is an ACoP)
Guilty as charged! (hangs head in shame..). I'll blame the fact it has a 'L' identifier and is laid out as an acop....
alistair  
#14 Posted : 20 June 2013 14:49:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
alistair

I agree and as a helpful hint, don't forget to consider para 38 which gives guidance on determining whether an accident was out of or in connection with work as it lists the key factors to take into consideration e.g. 'the manner of conducting an undertaking', 'plant or substances used' and 'condition of the premises'.
teh_boy  
#15 Posted : 20 June 2013 15:03:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
teh_boy

I don't have time to re-read the guidance, but I thought in the above the person was 'at work' and therefore it is by definition related to work task (wouldn't have happened if I wasn't at work) Where as the HSE examples all relate to members of the public / persons in a care home etc This is how I see it.. if a school reported every child that went to hospital because the fell over in the play ground they would be at it all day if a care home had to report a fall caused by a medical condition - is there any relevance guy at work falls down stairs.... reportable, he could have been rushing, stressed, poor lighting, carrying stuff... etc etc etc, even though the stairs were OK I get the feeling people are just trying not to report stuff... IMHO this one is defo reportable - and I'll say that even if he wasn't carrying the box! **ducks head and waits for the onslaught :) **
Mr.Flibble  
#16 Posted : 20 June 2013 15:30:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Mr.Flibble

Hell I would happily report anything (chances of the HSE turning up off the back of it are slim to none) however when you are targeted with KPI's it makes a lot of difference about reporting RIDDOR's that you might not need to. Such is the reality of working for large organisations.
Jake  
#17 Posted : 20 June 2013 15:32:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Jake

@ teh_boy I guess it depends if you want to be legally/technically correct or do the (percieved) "right thing" :-) My answer to those who vote the latter is to lobby government to make what is a very simple thing to get right a lot easier to follow with no interpretation required. It's a bit like the corporate tax scandals - a business exists to make money, so quite why they should voluntarily pay more tax than they are required too (assuming they are not lying about their activities) I do not know. Quite why the scandal isn’t flipped around to policy makers is a bigger scandal in it's self!
achrn  
#18 Posted : 20 June 2013 15:39:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

teh_boy wrote:
if a school reported every child that went to hospital because the fell over in the play ground they would be at it all day
Schools are different anyway, and there's specific guidance relating to injuries to pupils. In this case, if the person is off their normal work over 7 days, I would report it - the box they were carrying makes it 'arising out of work' in my view.
alistair  
#19 Posted : 20 June 2013 16:41:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
alistair

The examples given by HSE do relate to members of the public and children in school However, this is one of the reasons for the confusion because the need to report incidents 'arising out of or in connection with work' and consider all the accompanying guidance applies to employee accidents in exactly the same way. I do agree that better guidance would assist us with consistency. It will be wonderful when the new guidance comes out and clears it all up (sarcasm is the lowest form of wit!). Cheers
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