I have noted recently that time and again fire risk assessments in particular are being undertaken by external providers or by internal specialists with little involvement from staff/managers – what has happened to day to day people having ownership of these things as when asked it appears that those on the spot have no idea that such assessments are in place /have been undertaken? Are we getting to the point that all assessments are to be undertaken by specialists with no ‘on the ground’ bods getting involved so no ownership is present? I have no problem with specialists facilitating, guiding etc. those undertaking the assessments it’s just that those on the ground appear to have less and less involvement where such assessments are supposed to be owned and undertaken by the people present as its they who know their own workplaces with support as needed Opinions sort please

The basic philosophy that I try to work to is that: "He who decides how the work is to be carried out should be responsible for the risk assessment". The 'specialists', which would include the health and safety team as well as, perhaps, external experts, are there to assist that person in this task. It is perfectly possible to create systems that allow the 'non-expert' line manager/supervisor (or whoever has the responsibility for the risk assessment) to carry out an effective risk assessment without requiring full health and safety training. Chris

Thanks for the replies to date and people seem to be thinking as I am thinking so I am not going potty! After evaluating many fire risk assessments in particular recently I find that in my personal* opinion that >95% are poor to say the least and are mainly checklists with pretty pictures and almost all of the ones that are poor have been supplied by those who profess to be experts and yes companies have commissioned externals to undertake the assessments without involving those who work etc. in the premises concerned so many companies feel that they are covered when I feel that they will be sadly let down if they end up in court [*after undertaking / facilitating many kinds of risk assessments in many industries [and many very personal ones e.g. return to work etc.] over many many years]

For low risk sites I expect the site manager to conduct the FRA, with support from their H&S manager. For the high risk sites I get in a specialist consultant to conduct the FRA. Why do I do this? All based on levels of competency suitable for the risk.

After two audits from the fire service over a period of time, I decided to keep to the local fire service templates. As by following their guidance, I felt no matter how you drew up your FRA it would have to meet their requirements to cover what is required. (Free advice from experts). http://www.shropshirefir...isk-assessment-documents It will always require expertise from specialised companies, for example : Fire alarm system, extinguishers etc but you can't avoid those costs regardless of who is paid to draw up your FRA's, therefore there is no reason I can see why line managers can't complete the FRA's using these templates (they are working in the areas day in day out and know better than anyone) and then be checked by the Health & Safety Manager. The fire logs are carried out weekly by employees who are trained in house to do so and checked regularly to ensure they are completed fully. Other employees are trained as fire marshals and all employees receive fire training annually. Everyone is involved.

As a consultant to SME's, the fire risk assessment documents that I produce state that the assessment has been conducted by me AND a supervisor/manager. These assessments must include involvement from staff/management, after all they know what processes they run, what/where materials are used/stored. Some premises I inspect are old buildings, like rabbit warrens some of them. On first visit I might find flammable liquids hidden in cupboards all over the place, finding those and getting all that storage sorted/relocated needs co-operation from supervisors, and they need to instill staff discipline with regards to ensuring safe storage overnight, maintain equipment safety etc. Often, yes OFTEN, I have found fire exits padlocked on the OUTSIDE, again disciplined managers and fire marshalls needed to train. Examples like those - basically the staff/managers just did not have the mind-set to understand the risks and how to manage their workplace, unaware of the implications legal and insurance, very scary - they were in serious need of a competent person to guide them and DO the assessment WITH them. JohnW

Have to agree with jarsmith; there is a clear difference between general workplace RAs and Fire Safety Risk Assessments. With FSRA level of technical expertise is needed for all but the simplest premises; will a general manager spot breaches of compartments for example? Will they be able to check for fusible fire breaks in ducting? Do they know what the fire risk from kitchen extractors or tumble dryer flues is? My experience is no, they can't, and no they don't. We allow our most simple retail premises (two rooms, two doors, one floor) to be risk-assessed by trained managers using a detailed semi-generic. Otherwise it's my team with the Property department, and they're all trained & experienced, John