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Laurence(Loz)  
#1 Posted : 02 October 2013 08:32:21(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Laurence(Loz)

Is it just me or are companies that provide Temporary workers flouting the PPE Regs, by not providing required PPE to their staff free of charge, trying to get them to provide their staff with suitable PPE is a nightmare. They claim, as the worker is only temporary, they are not obliged to provide PPE free of charge as laid out in the PPE regs "An employer cannot ask for money from an employee for PPE, whether it is returnable or not. This includes agency workers, if they are legally regarded as your employees. If employment has been terminated and the employee keeps the PPE without the employer’s permission, then, as long as it has been made clear in the contract of employment, the employer may be able to deduct the cost of the replacement from any wages owed" So ok, we pay the agency, they pay their staff. So to me that makes the agency their employer, therefore they should provide the PPE, IE boots to their staff Free of Charge. I am I correct or am I missing something?
walker  
#2 Posted : 02 October 2013 08:43:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

You are correct I've reported several to HSE over the years and I know they (HSE) have jumped on them But its still rife Simple answer is don't use such agencies
Steve W1  
#3 Posted : 02 October 2013 11:38:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Steve W1

Hi Loz We use a lot of temporary workers in our warehouses and we wouldn't use an agency who didn't provide the appropriate P.P.E. we specify. If any agency worker came on site without their P.P.E. they would be asked to leave site straight away. There are a lot of agencies out there some good some bad, my advise is shop around. And only use an agency that fulfills all the requirements you specific. The agency we use provides safety footwear and hi-viz vests free of charge to all the staff they send to our site. But you are right in stating that some agency's don't and as the last post said ,its still rife. Steve
pete48  
#4 Posted : 02 October 2013 12:17:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

They are obliged to provide but the kit remains the property of the employer just as it does with any employer. Therefore, if the kit is not returned at the end of the contract, and provided the employment contract allows it, the employer can charge the employee for any kit not returned. Put that alongside the temporary nature of agencies and their contracts and you can see at once the nightmare that trying to control the return of PPE can quickly become for both the agencies and their employees. I guess many agency employees prefer to have their own PPE rather than perhaps end up with second or third or twentieth hand me downs. None of that justifies poor practice of course but it does illustrate why it is such an issue. We specify explicitly what PPE standards are required and expect agency employees to have the common basics that they need; we then provide any specific or specialist kit on loan free of charge. Is this another case where the law needs a tweek to recognise the practicality of the modern workplace or it is simply a case that the client should always provide the PPE on loan?
Mick Noonan  
#5 Posted : 02 October 2013 12:34:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mick Noonan

For alot of agencies there is a significant cost saving to be had here. If the client provides the PPE then there's no cost. Is just cheaper to be "made" to provide the PPE rather than pay and provide it all up front.
chris42  
#6 Posted : 02 October 2013 16:51:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

How do you know if the worker has been forced to provide the PPE themselves, by the agency before they come to your site. Just because they turn up with it, does not mean they were provided with it.
johnmurray  
#7 Posted : 02 October 2013 17:17:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

They don't know, and probably don't care either. I'll just mention that a job with a very large UK company, which employs large amounts of agency staff, requires you to provide your own PPE (boots, hard-hat and high-viz) (the agency supply their branded high-viz, at cost). The agency is a very well-known one. Never forgetting that the length of "employment" is 12 weeks, or less. Agency workers register with multiple agencies. The employers don't complain, or care, and the employees don't either. Shooting yourself in the head is not compulsory.
Canopener  
#8 Posted : 02 October 2013 18:44:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Canopener

This has been discussed here a number of times before and it still remains something of a festering sore, ‘assisted’ in part by a lack of clear guidance from the HSE who must be well aware of the issue, and because there is no specific case law to assist in unravelling the various issues. Although there are ET cases which have identified the employer as being those who administer PAYE/NI (oh, and there are cases that contradict this e.g. Dacas), I would suggest that you can’t necessarily rely on these judgements as the test for determining who is the employer for health and safety purposes. The ‘test’ of ‘control’ is one that may well be particularly relevant when determining employment status. I am not sure if there is a ‘one size fits all’ solution (and perhaps this is why the HSE haven’t dealt with this a little more robustly) and as with a number of aspects of employing temporary workers through an agency, I tend to ask myself the question “who is best placed to do x,y or z?” and then agree this with the appropriate agency and make it part of the T&Cs. I am also aware that many agencies (as the result of legal advice from their ‘professional organisation arising from ET/EAT cases) do not accept that there is an employer/employee relationship between them and the workers they supply. All in all, it is a bit of a muddle and I don’t think that it is entirely fair to either criticise all agencies or always expect them to provide the PPE in all situations. Similarly, if you were to force the hand of the agency, then it is not unreasonable to expect them to merely pass on the costs of PPE to you through their charges. I for one am a little disappointed that AWD/AWR didn’t deal with this; it seems something of a missed opportunity. However, if you think you can (always) argue that the agency is the employer, I fear you may be in for something of a shock.
bentonsr  
#9 Posted : 02 October 2013 19:10:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bentonsr

I use a simply solution. When the agency signed up with us it was made part of the agreement that they provide me with a stock of PPE. the viz-vest must be marked with theirs and our company name (working in partnership) No other are allowed. I Issue it and get them to sign as normal, I keep a copy and send the other back to the agency, I also sign back in any returned and send this to the agency. If they choose to charge people for non returns, this is their business.
bluefingers  
#10 Posted : 02 October 2013 20:19:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bluefingers

I do not work in HR, nor am I familiar with contract law, but some agencies that we use set up a tripartite agreement between the agency, the worker and an umbrella company. The workers are self employed for the purpose of tax and NIC, paid by the umbrella company. This means that they skirt round the AWR. Employment status is always a tricky issue, but our insurance company are absolutely positive that they should be treated as our employees for the purposes of employers liability insurance. This being the case we always provide PPE so we are sure that the PPE falls in line with our requirements. I think the only way to be confident about who is responsible for the provision is to enter into an agreement with the agency. Responsibility for the reporting of injuries under RIDDOR should perhaps be in the same agreement, as should a statement regarding the employment status of the worker. Some agencies provide labour under a contract to provide services, and that labour is self employed. Complicated? I am sure it could be simplified.
Ron Hunter  
#11 Posted : 02 October 2013 22:44:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

You can stipulate PPE requirements via contract terms with the Agency. At the end of the day YOU will pay for this as part of the on-costs.
bob youel  
#12 Posted : 03 October 2013 07:18:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

In addition many many volunteers [ we probably have close to a million at this point in time] are being treated in the same way as agency staff and after working in these areas since the late 60's, and after running an agency myself, I find that most agencies along with most clients do not care and as for the enforcers -well enough said Many years ago my agency was pushed out of many areas because we paid for PPE etc. and treated staff decently where as others did not so we lost contracts as our prices were seen as being too high and we were especially pushed away from government areas e.g. the ones that were supposed to be especially adhering to the law! I know volunteer groups that have brought millions of pounds into organisations via grants yet the same organisations will not give them a pair of 50P gloves! Please note that there are still some very good clients and agencies out there so all is not yet totally lost
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