Rank: Super forum user
|
When a CDM C reviews a CPP prior to approving it for start on site how particular would the CDM C be expected to be.
What sort of issues would be looked for/at in the Initial CPP?
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Firesafety
A schedule of information that should be included in the CPP is listed in the CDM ACOP "Managing Health and Safety In Construction" free to download from HSE website.
Not all the information listed is required as it is dependant on the nature of the project, but it does give you a good idea of what should be included.
Regards
Paul
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Sorry, In answer to the first part of you question.
It depends on the risks of the project. A good CDMC would use their judgement in relation to this and not expect the same level of information to be provided for a residential decoration scheme as they would for new build hi-rise block of flats for example.
As long as PC is demonstrating an awareness of the risks associated with the site and project and implementing suitable control measures that should suffice.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Firesafety,
Firstly, a CDM-C should not 'approve' a CPP!
A CDM-C should be 'as particular' as is necessary, dependant on the project complexity and risk nature of the works. The CPP should also be specific in nature (of which most aren't), resulting in a process of 'to and fro' comments from CDM-C to PC until it is felt the CPP is sufficiently developed in accordance with the requirements of CDM2007.
Usually this amount of time necesary is under-estimated by the Client / PM /PC resulting in questions such as yours!
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
SP900308 is quite right.
The duty rests with the client not to permit works to commence until a suitable cpp is in place. The CDMC merely advises the client as to the suitability of this document, he does not approve it.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
And to elaborate still further on SP900308 and paulw71's replies - the ACOP explicitly states that the CDM-C does no such thing - paragraph 108 c: "CDM co-ordinators don't have to ... approve the principal contractor's construction phase plan"
I find it surprising how often it's necessary to point that out to CDM-Cs.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
I agree with the other postings. Unfortunately good CDMC's are not usually involved enough nor early enough to advise the client fully and properly and many clients that I have come across do not even know that they are paying for a CDMC nor have they even met them!!!???
This is where the clients R7* person should come in as its they who should also be advising the client or getting somebody on board who can
*I have been putting this case since the original consultation to the first CDM regs was started towards the compilers of the regs but to no avail as yet as there is supposed to be an R7 person in place at all times irrespective of any construction works taking place so they would be ideally placed and not cost anything as they are already paid!
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
SP900308 wrote:Firesafety,
Firstly, a CDM-C should not 'approve' a CPP!
A CDM-C should be 'as particular' as is necessary, dependant on the project complexity and risk nature of the works. The CPP should also be specific in nature (of which most aren't), resulting in a process of 'to and fro' comments from CDM-C to PC until it is felt the CPP is sufficiently developed in accordance with the requirements of CDM2007.
Usually this amount of time necesary is under-estimated by the Client / PM /PC resulting in questions such as yours!
I also assess Construction Phase Plans against the criteria is found in Appendix 3 of the ACOP for the 2007 Regs.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
achrn wrote:And to elaborate still further on SP900308 and paulw71's replies - the ACOP explicitly states that the CDM-C does no such thing - paragraph 108 c: "CDM co-ordinators don't have to ... approve the principal contractor's construction phase plan"
I find it surprising how often it's necessary to point that out to CDM-Cs.
You are correct in quoting approved as the key word in paragraph 108, however Regulation 20 1 (a) states; give suitable and sufficient advice and assistance to the client on undertaking the measures he needs to take to comply with these Regulations during the project (including, in particular, assisting the client in complying with regulations 9 and 16);
Regulation 16 states; Where the project is notifiable, the client shall ensure that the construction phase does not start unless—
(a) the principal contractor has prepared a construction phase plan which complies with regulations 23(1)(a) and 23(2)
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
CPP sufficiently developed to enable the construction phase to commence.
Adequate welfare, site management and resources.
Often traffic management.
An adequate response to all the significant project issues that he identified in his PCI.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Forum user
|
Hi Fiersafety,
Going back to your original question, in my limited experience the key area has been the risk register and proposed control measures. Being able to demonstrate an awareness of all the hazards involved and possible outcomes and suitable emergency planning will go some way to putting their minds to rest.
Good luck.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Always a huge bugbear as the requirement is for a suitable and sufficient CPP for work to start - NOT one suitable and sufficient for the whole project which is where most CDMCs seem to head. Technically as long as such things as intitial welfare facilities, security, initial traffic management, site management and early risk management are covered then the plan is suitable and sufficient to start. Clients and CDMCs have created the current nightmare of wanting a full CPP for the whole project at the start of the project
Bob
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
and Bob with come clients demanding in the tenders!! (So much for reducing bureaucracy)
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Thanks for all the views.
I had a further look myself and not in the ACOP to the regs states in a Section entitled:
“What CDM co-ordinators don’t have to do” at paragraph (c)
“approve the principal contractor’s construction phase plan, although they have to advise clients on its adequacy at the start of construction.”
This to me means that if it is adequate, (not perfect or comprehensive, or even more than adequate).
Further, if the CDM C needs to comment on the adequacy they need to see the CPP.
John Mc has touched on the risk register - this is included in the passage that says:
(including the risks specific to the particular type of construction work concerned) and includes suitable and sufficient measures to address such risks, including any site rules.
To me this means having a look at, and advising on the adequacy of the PCs RAMS.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Firesafety101 wrote:Thanks for all the views.
I had a further look myself and not in the ACOP to the regs states in a Section entitled:
“What CDM co-ordinators don’t have to do” at paragraph (c)
“approve the principal contractor’s construction phase plan, although they have to advise clients on its adequacy at the start of construction.”
This to me means that if it is adequate, (not perfect or comprehensive, or even more than adequate).
Further, if the CDM C needs to comment on the adequacy they need to see the CPP.
John Mc has touched on the risk register - this is included in the passage that says:
(including the risks specific to the particular type of construction work concerned) and includes suitable and sufficient measures to address such risks, including any site rules.
To me this means having a look at, and advising on the adequacy of the PCs RAMS.
Firesafety,
Have a look at the Clients duties rather than those of the CDM-C, particularly Regulation 16 and paragraph 76 of the ACOP. Then look at appendix 3 of the ACOP.
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
stedman thanks, yes there are words to the effect that client with the help of the CDM C must ensure that the plan is
project-specific and suitable.
So should it be adequate or suitable?
Is there a difference?
|
|
|
|
Rank: Super forum user
|
Firesafety101 wrote:stedman thanks, yes there are words to the effect that client with the help of the CDM C must ensure that the plan is
project-specific and suitable.
So should it be adequate or suitable?
Is there a difference?
Firesafety,
I use the phrase “suitable and sufficiently and sufficiently developed for the start up phase of the project”, however depending upon how risk adverse you are, you can purchase a standard letter from APS specifically for this purpose.
The work suitable is taken from Regulation 20.
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.