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Steve e ashton  
#1 Posted : 20 November 2013 16:06:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

With the BBC headlining an admission that target setting may adversely affect the way police forces categorise crime incidents - and previous similar admissions from other forces - is there any parallel in the way accident reduction targets are set and met?

I've always been nervous of the target culture - the anecdotal evidence (is there any object research available?) is that it acts to drive down the number of reports without necessarily driving down the number of incidents. The suggestion here is that the same psychology has been recognised in respect of crime figures...

Any thoughts and observations?

Steve
A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 20 November 2013 16:18:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

I often look at stats particularly benchmarking stats with a cautious eye. You will often see incident rates compared and one agency will look much lower that the others and it is not obvious they are doing anything different. You just suspect that they are under reporting.
PGra  
#3 Posted : 20 November 2013 17:13:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
PGra

Totally agree. If you give some organsiation or person a target and also make the achievement of said target a measurement in regard to budget allocation or pay the affect in my opinion is always the same. The target is achieve even if there ia actually no improvement or worse the achievement of the target is because of fiddling figures.

If look at what happened in the recent incident within the NHS I would suggest the managers cared more about achieving their target rather than the patients and after having some experience where a NHS service my wife accesses was change becasue of "restructuring" (another name for cuts) without any involvement of the relevant medical staff or patients. The reason for this was to achieve the NHS trust target of treating the required number of patients within a certain timescale.

I've never understood why things have always got to improve surely when setting targets, it should not be about reducing numbers but accepting things happen and the target should be about reducing the affect.
ExDeeps  
#4 Posted : 21 November 2013 08:14:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ExDeeps

Here’s the thing, setting targets and looking for statistical measures of success is no bad thing – provided we are measuring the right thing in the first place. Too often safety stats (and I suspect crime figures) simply look at what has happened, i.e. number of near misses, number of LTA’s, in some cases days off sick etc. Then a target is set by someone to “drive improvement” and so the challenge is set. This gets even more complex when we incentivise someone to achieve that new target with bonuses, pay rise, Christmas hamper. Humans will behave in a human way.

So, if we see that 10 people slipped on loose gravel in the car park last year we might set a target of say 5 slips this year(work with me here – lets NOT go down the zero accidents route for a moment). As we approach 5 this year we become more worried. At 5 or 6 we start to question “Was that one really a slip”, “that one wasn’t due to gravel, it was high heels” etc.

If we were to set another target, alongside the reduced trips we might get a “better” result. So in my hypothetical scenario above how’s about setting the 5 trips target but also set a target to sweep the car park weekly. There can then be a direct correlation between “did someone slip and had the car park been swept that week?).

In other words, safety stats tend to be reactive - bad things that have already happened. By also measuring a control and reporting it as a safety stat we now have a comparative leading safety stat. And from that we can again incentives people to reduce the stats by measuring the input as well as the output.

There is another output – if the car park is swept weekly and the slips do not reduce there’s another problem, conversely it may turn out that there are no slips this year so you have proof your control worked for the next time the bean counters try to stop you sweeping the car park every week.

Jim
RayRapp  
#5 Posted : 21 November 2013 16:00:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

It has been argued that we tend to measure what is easy to measure as opposed to what should be measured. I am a natural cynic and don't give much credence to statistics. They can be manipulated at source or during compilation. There have been many arguments that organisations (eg NHS, Schools, as well as the Police) are too focused on meeting targets and thereby missing the big picture. Targets and KPIs should be SMART and not aspirational if they are to have any credibility.

Near misses are a typical lagging indicator which drives industry on the wishful notion that they reduce accidents and incidents. They might have some effect for low risk events like slips, trips and falls, but there is no evidence of any correlation with higher risk events.
KieranD  
#6 Posted : 24 November 2013 19:47:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
KieranD

It is quite reasonable to be circumspect about policy targets at national level, unless they are validated by professional statisticians such as those employed by the Office for National Statistics, the HSE and (some) professional societies.

Within an organisation, the value of such figures depends on the skill level of those who gather and interpret statistical data. Far more useful analytical guidance can be provided to managers (and employee representatives) if statistical trends about safety are subjected to analysis using techniques such as multiple regression, correlation and cluster analysis, which can provide robust arguments for investing in training, PPE, new or refurbished furniture and tools, and similar kinds of interventions.

Competent use of inferential statistics are normally only referred to as 'lies, damned lies an statistics' by those without the understanding and knowhow necessary to recognise the value of interval estimates and levels of confidence in professionally-informed arguments.

Too often, they bedevil any debate about unavoidably complex issues such as behavioural safety, longitudinal accident/incident analysis, ergonomic interventions and safety culture by demonstrating - even loudly proclaiming - their profound lack of relevant statistical competence, even on the hallowed IOSH forums on occasions.
gramsay  
#7 Posted : 25 November 2013 10:49:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
gramsay

ExDeeps wrote:
(good stuff)


That was an excellent post, Jim, and a great message to keep getting across to managers.
DavidGault  
#8 Posted : 25 November 2013 15:38:23(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
DavidGault

I have visited many businesses and although many try to keep their accident/incident investigations honest and try to gain a good undestanding of what is happening on site so they can produce good preventative actions I have to say I have also come across a few who literally throw accident and incident reports in the bin. I can think of two companies immediately that claimed zero accidents or incidents but had a knack of throwing away anything that came in. It is a poor management tactic of course.
chris.packham  
#9 Posted : 25 November 2013 16:02:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

When anyone starts to talk about measuring and statistics I always reflect on what Einstein is reputed to have once said.

"Not everything that can be measured counts, and not everything that counts can be measured"

Of course, to insist on measurements and resultant statistics satisfies those who tend to be looking at figures that they can use to convince others, probably who have no direct knowledge of the actual circumstances and the potential for meaningful measurements (the word 'politicians' comes to mind!).

Cynical? Perhaps, or maybe it is experience born of 'mature years', but I tend to be cautious about the meaning of any measurements unless I know exactly what was measured, how it was measured and am convinced that the measurement really reflects reality and is meaningful and useful.

Chris
RayRapp  
#10 Posted : 25 November 2013 16:09:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Chris, very profound and true - nice post.
westonphil  
#11 Posted : 30 November 2013 17:30:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
westonphil

In reality many of these headline stats are just used to communicate headlines to those who do not have time to check all the detail. The true picture is often different to the headlines and open to different interpretation. It's once we start checking the detail we find out the true picture, as has happened with the Police stats. The problem is that the media are great at reporting issues and stirring things up but are poor at offering alternative solutions.

Most people present their own lives, information, 'facts', etc., in a way which makes the case they personally want to make so I do not see why we should be suprised if relevant agencies or businesses do the same.....it's in the DNA of society to 'massage' the figures/facts, within reason. The important thing is to consider the risk and keep things in proportion; it may well be that there were 3 LTA's this year as opposed to last year, and it seems to look bad, but it may well be that last year the risk of a fatality was high but due to the safety work completed this year the risk of a fatality is low. The problem is that the media want to sell bad news and so they would concentrate on the increase in LTA's and conveniently forget about the risk reduction with regards to fatalities. So we also have to remember that when the media do their reporting they are also often presenting the 'facts' in a way which makes their case, and which for the most part is negative.

Regards.
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