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firesafety101  
#1 Posted : 09 December 2013 17:24:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Regarding the HASAWA which applies to employees at work, are volunteers classed as employees?

I'm thinking about a volunteer lifeboat crew, not RNLI but a lifeboat funded by donations from general public and the crew who respond either on their own, but usually supported by Police, FRS, Ambulance Service etc. or as part of a team alongside FRS?

Further is there anything in regulations that puts the fire service in command of a lifeboat crew when responding to an emergency situation where a person's life is threatened by water?


Johnmann  
#2 Posted : 09 December 2013 17:30:41(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Johnmann

Same situation on preserved railways. Yes, volunteers are classed as employees for Health and Safety purposes.
firesafety101  
#3 Posted : 09 December 2013 17:48:23(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Thanks John.

Can another emergency service impose their risk assessments on them?

I ask because recently there was an incident where the lifeboat crew were delayed in a rescue attempt because the fire service demanded they use ropes and lines while descending a grassy bank when they could see the casualty who was struggling from a heart attack.

The fire service have their risk assessments and procedures to follow but the lifeboat crew did not have the same level of H&S and procedures and wanted to get to the casualty ASAP.
bob youel  
#4 Posted : 09 December 2013 17:51:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Once a vessel is under the command of its master things change. This is a complicated/specialist law area and maritime areas/laws need to be condidered. However before and after the crew [volunteers, PAYE employees and others] become under the masters complete control then all other things apply e.g. HSWA
RayRapp  
#5 Posted : 09 December 2013 20:54:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

quote=FireSafety101]Thanks John.

Can another emergency service impose their risk assessments on them?

I ask because recently there was an incident where the lifeboat crew were delayed in a rescue attempt because the fire service demanded they use ropes and lines while descending a grassy bank when they could see the casualty who was struggling from a heart attack.

The fire service have their risk assessments and procedures to follow but the lifeboat crew did not have the same level of H&S and procedures and wanted to get to the casualty ASAP.


The fire service, or another emergency service come to that, cannot legally impose their risk assessments on another group such as a life boat crew. That said, I would take heed of their 'advice' as they are the specialists when it comes to emergency rescue on land. Perhaps you need to consider whether your procedures and RAs need to cover abseiling and other related high risk activities for rescuing people?
firesafety101  
#6 Posted : 09 December 2013 21:25:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Ray its an insure lifeboat and it was a grass covered dyke with a sloping banked side 10 feet high.

The lifeboat crew dynamically risk assessed and decided no lines were required as they saw the casualty in trouble. By the way the casualty could see them??????

Fire service threw rank on them and told them to wait until ropes were provided.

Children run up and down and slide down theses banked sides in summer.

What happened to reasonably practicable ?
A Kurdziel  
#7 Posted : 10 December 2013 13:00:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

So what would have happend if the crew went ahead and did the resuce anyway?
Paul Duell  
#8 Posted : 10 December 2013 13:51:59(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Paul Duell

I volunteer with another organisation which provides specialist support to the blue light services - when we are called out we come under the direction of the agency or service that called us, so if the incident commander says "don't do that", we don't do it. I suspect your inshore lifeboat crew would come under the same rules, although it depends on the pre-existing agreement you have with the fire service.

As to the original question, yes volunteers are employees - however in the case you've described the volunteers are employees of the inshore rescue charity, not of the fire service. As I've already said, there's probably some sort of mutual assistance agreement between the organisations and that may well put the lifeboat people under the direction of the fire service incident commander.
Paul Duell  
#9 Posted : 10 December 2013 13:54:02(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Paul Duell

A Kurdziel wrote:
So what would have happend if the crew went ahead and did the resuce anyway?

If the relationship between organisations is as I surmised above, probably the inshore rescue organisation would find they didn't get as many call outs in the future...
A Kurdziel  
#10 Posted : 10 December 2013 14:35:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Paul Duell wrote:
A Kurdziel wrote:
So what would have happend if the crew went ahead and did the resuce anyway?

If the relationship between organisations is as I surmised above, probably the inshore rescue organisation would find they didn't get as many call outs in the future...

So Paul
You suspect that the official blue light services might go home with their ball and not let the volunteers play anymore...
And so put people at risk as the volunteers provide a service that the official agencies don’t provide...
Someone should write to the Daily Mail about this...


RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 10 December 2013 15:29:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

FireSafety101 wrote:
Ray its an insure lifeboat and it was a grass covered dyke with a sloping banked side 10 feet high.

The lifeboat crew dynamically risk assessed and decided no lines were required as they saw the casualty in trouble. By the way the casualty could see them??????

Fire service threw rank on them and told them to wait until ropes were provided.

Children run up and down and slide down theses banked sides in summer.

What happened to reasonably practicable ?


Fair enough, but from your posting it could have been a 100ft cliff...the Devil is in the detail.

ps reasonably practicable is still alive and kicking, even if no one understands him - LOL!
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