When I was involved in looking at designs the position and type of extinguisher was decided at the point just before the drawings were issued for approval. This meant that we got them in the right places and not having to find somewhere when the work was finished. In fact it was very useful in getting the designers to actually consider the position of them in the first place. Didn't stop one designer asking for extinguishers that blended with the wallpaper. Take care John C

A successful 2014 to all!! This is a very good question and illustrates the difficulty of implementing an overall fire safety strategy through the FSO at design stage when the FSO is only intended to come into scope once the controller of the premises is actually the controller of the premises!!! There is a world of difference between the fire defences built-into a structural design and those that should be put in place once the structure has achieved a "finished" and active condition. I know that reads rather odd; but the design of a building or structure will not normally include the "as fitted" intricacies of the plant, equipment, substrances and products to be stored, manipulated , processed or created [inc wastes] as these will not be clearly determined until some time later after the initial design. This leads to the conclusion that it is not as easy as most think to properly identify the type, number and location of any fire extinguishers that may genuinely be required. Also, things change - during the design, build, fitting-out, and operation of a site; so pre-determining the locations of FEs could be wildly inappropriate unless this topic is built-into the development of the site as it really exists. We must also keep it in mind that DSEAR must be considered at the same time and the conclusions from the two RAs integrated so as to create a coherent and effective fire and explosion response strategy. Further, the FSO does not actually require any fire extinguishers per se; the main intent of the FSO is to minimise fire risk to the point where fire extinguishers should not be necessary. Secondly, the premises controller can only determine what type, number and location of fire extinguishers once the fire strategy has been determined in relation to whether the initial response will be to attack the fire or simply to pass the fire [applicable only from dead-end situations]. Frank Hallett

Contender for quote of the year? Please take note all those carrying out fire risk assessments, in particular the extinguisher sales people!

When I do building consultation work in my role, I focus on items that cannot easily be added after or approaching practical completion, such as fire separation, fire detection and emergency lighting. I do mark where the fire extinguishers should be positioned, but I have an agreement with the project managers that the extinguisher numbers, type and especially location are aspirational during the design stage and may be changed during the pre-occupation FRA. As Frank has said, so many layouts change or items are added during the life of a build, and once obvious extinguisher locations are eventually completely unsuitable. I had such an experience today when 4 huge recycle bins (not marked on any plans) found themselves surrounding and obstructing a three extinguisher fire point. The bins can't go anywhere else so the firefighting equipment will have to!

This sort of situation applies to all kinds of things not just fire and this is where the CDMC and the clients R7 person especially should be doing their job as designers will do whatever is asked of them provided somebody pays for it One job as an example involved the putting in of a small plinth in an industrial kitchen which helped the day to day user thereafter and for evermore Nobody had bothered properly evaluating the day to day use of the kitchen as part of the designer, CDMC's duties as if they had they would have realised that such a plinth would have risen the industrial freezers to exactly the right height which would have eradicated problems for the future - The designers answer was to install different freezers [which would have made the job harder for the user] and the CDMC has no thoughts on the matter The overall point here is that where we can [and are allowed to ] we should evaluate properly the day to day use of a building and design from that point onwards where it is possible to do so

Thanks for the input everyone. I think Frank has just found the nail and hammer and firmly hit the nail on the head. The question has been asked by the team that manages the space inside the stores and wants to know if the fire extinguisher placements will be the same in every store. This adds to Frank's point about the FRA not being done when it should be done. I think I will be asked to provide the placements at the design stage to enable the store space manager to organise his stuff around the extinguishers. While all stores are similar they are all different and I feel a fire risk assessment cannot be done suitably and sufficiently at that stage. There needs to be consideration, not just for the fire risk, usually low, but also for the type of people present, stature, gender, training received etc. etc. The present suppliers of portable fire equipment may be invited to attend a meeting to find out their practice/policy and that will be interesting. They may then be invited to provide input on locations as they will still be providing and installing. I doubt if they have ever recorded a fire risk assessment to decide on FE requirements. Watch this space.