The evac. need not be immediate, it can be phased - such as would be applied in care homes, hospitals etc. Not "refuge" in the accepted sense perhaps, more about appropriate compartmentalisation and fire safety standards to enable a phased approach.

A refuge needs to be a half hour fr compartment and usually in a staircase enclosure with the same degree of fr. There are fire lifts now that can be used in an evacuation and the refuge must have telephone comms with the vicinity of the fire alam panel. That's a very brief summary.

Just by the by, ski-pads are much better than evac chairs in most situations. They are easier to use, training is therefore easier, and they are almost zero maintenance. At my previous employers we moved away from evac chairs completely in favour of ski pads. Since their premises are a mixture of hospices and residential homes for people with severe and complex disabilities some sort of means of getting people with poor or zero mobility down stairs was de rigeur. We managed to get them for around the 100 pound mark, and no, I can't remember where from. Their big limitation would be for people with very high muscle tone, who might not be able to unbend enough to get into them, but they would also have problems with evac chairs, John

Hi we have this problem quite allot in our care homes. Each client must have a PEEP, fire and rescue service will expect that you have at least started if not completed the evacuation prior to their arrival. You will not be able to plan to leave anyone in a room or refuge, un less the entire compartment is 1 hour fire resistant and they have a means of communication or in the case of some residents leave a person with them. Obviously there will be situations where you don't plan to leave them but they refuse to go etc. As Ron says the evacuation can be phased but the definitions of this varies. our process is to evacuate the compartment affected to behind the first fire door as we only have 2.5 mins to get folk to a place of relatve safety, from there we evacuate the zone to the furthest available holding place with an exit to the outside usually a lounge and from then on the rest of the home to the same place. If it then require a full evac they can then be taken directly to the outside. we use a trafic light system red amber and green to decide of what type of equipment is needed and how many staff. obviously a large numbers of reds would require staffing levels to refklect this. Bob

Firesafety; those are good questions. On the point of refusal I guess I might say that that's directly analogous to people who refuse to move when they hear the alarm; you do what you can to help but death is always an alternative. On the point of asking a disabled person to participate in a drill, it would depend very much on the people concerned. Somebody who is otherwise fit and well but with severely restricted mobility might well be able and willing to take part in a drill without ill effects. You couldn't ask a Hospice patient or most people with advanced Huntingdon's or Alzheimer's disease to take part, for one reason or another. In those cases all you can do (as you know I am sure) is develop a robust PEEP and use some skill and imagination. Very good questions though, and everybody should be asking them, John