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martin sprange  
#1 Posted : 03 July 2014 19:42:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
martin sprange

If a school is being used for after school activities and there are multiple users within the building, should the caretaker be allowed to lock all the fire escapes apart from the main doors? No alternate routes of escape available and no RA in place to prove it is safe. Opinions please
johnmc  
#2 Posted : 03 July 2014 19:51:01(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
johnmc

Definitely not under any circumstances.
firesafety101  
#3 Posted : 03 July 2014 22:17:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

This should be reported to the FRS immediately. I doubt if there has been a fire risk assessment revision to accommodate the temporary change of use of the premises but really this is dangerous practice and must be stopped.
firesafety101  
#4 Posted : 03 July 2014 22:19:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Martin, I've had second thoughts. if you don't wish to contact the local FRS pm me and I will. Details of the school and location will do.
Jackie Robertson  
#5 Posted : 03 July 2014 23:19:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Jackie Robertson

I think you will find this is illegal.
mssy  
#6 Posted : 03 July 2014 23:23:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

Its the 'no RA in place to prove it is safe' part that bothers me most. It is really not possible on the facts given to say 'Definitely not under any circumstances', as it might well be 'safe' to lock up part of a building when other parts are still in use. But this process does need some careful consideration, and more importantly, some effective communication to ensure the person with the padlock understands the strategy and its limits None of that appears to be the case here
firesafety101  
#7 Posted : 03 July 2014 23:46:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Mssy it isn't just part of the building it is everywhere except the main doors. It is a no brainer, frs need to know otherwise an accident waiting to happen, I for one would not have this on my conscience and am prepeared to make the call and report, tomorrow if I get the information.
Bob Shillabeer  
#8 Posted : 04 July 2014 00:07:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Bob Shillabeer

Fire safety why would the FRS need to know? The premises are one in a million they may have to deal with and to submit details of each premise will be an absolute nightmare. The RRFSO requires the premises controller to simply protect both any persons in the premises and the premises itself. In the event of a fire the FRS would respond on the basis of the building being on fire and act accordingly. The FRS is the enforcing authority and may take action if they consider the Fire RA is inadequate, nothing more nothing less. It seems to me that the premises controller is simply trying to save on expenses by not having arrangements for the building to be properly 'open' by ensuring adequate escape routes are alway available. If no FRA is available to demonstrate that adequate arrangements are in place they are in breach of the RRFSO and the premises controller is breaking the law, simples.
Invictus  
#9 Posted : 04 July 2014 07:27:01(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Martin why don't you just speak to the head and show them article 14 of the regs. You could also get in touch with the local authorities H&S dept and let them know your concerns if you get no joy from the head. They might of considered this as part of the RA or maybe they haven't. I understand where firesafety coming from but quite often a word in the right ear solves the problem.
jodieclark1510  
#10 Posted : 04 July 2014 08:19:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jodieclark1510

I would definitiely start off by speaking to the Head, it's not a case of scaring or intimidating but educating.Does the Head even know the caretaker is doing this? Could be an eye opener.
bob youel  
#11 Posted : 04 July 2014 09:25:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

after dealing with private schools for a long time I would be supprised if the head did not know of the practice - that said consider your role / position e.g. your mortgage and if in doubt give fire safety101 the details as this is wrong and whilst the F&RS have many things to do they put schools at the top of their list and they would be interested
David Bannister  
#12 Posted : 04 July 2014 09:52:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

To the OP: is your concern as a parent of a pupil, a user of the school premises or as safety adviser to the school? If you are the safety adviser you should be in a position to review the FRA and decide if the arrangements are adequate. If you are not in such a position then the advice to speak to the school head is good, urgently voicing your concerns and then depending on the response, decide whether you need to escalate to the Chair of Governors. Are the multiple users all in one area that is adequately served by a single escape route, with all possibilities for wandering off- route locked, or at the other end of the scale spread in numbers across the school site? What makes you sure that there is no FRA?
firesafety101  
#13 Posted : 04 July 2014 10:47:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I have in the past spoken with the local fire safety officer who is very happy to attend premises and review their practices following a discussion with me. They are happy for me to be their "eyes" when out and about as they cannot be everywhere. They always report back to me with positive responses. I can't believe the attitude of some practitioners who have posted here, this is a breach of the rrfso and if no one takes it up with them or the fire safety officer we are being negligent. Aren't we here because we are Health and Safety professionals? Are we all happy to simply discuss situations such as this without taking any action to improve? This is a school with children and adults in attendance and with no alternative means of escape. How many times do we hear about multiple fatalities in fires involving premises where exits were found to be locked. I am happy to act by calling the local fire safety officer if I get the location details of the school in question. Grrrrrrrrrr
mssy  
#14 Posted : 04 July 2014 20:12:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

For the record, all local authority fire services will respond to what some call 'alleged fire risks' any time. In London, specialist ire safety officers will arrive within 2 to 3 hours (I think) during office hours, and uniformed staff from fire stations (generally less skilled) during out of hours reports within 2 hours. Whether this School situation needs such a visit at this time is IMO doubtful, but Firesafety101 is not wrong to suggest an immediate call to the fire service. Make no mistake, forget the Bank of England and Fort Knox, it's Schools we trust with our most valuable 'property'. Some are really switched on when it comes to fire safety, but in my experience, most are not. Heads of larger Schools tend to consider they have a God like status and may cherry pick the legislation they will comply with. Fire safety provision can be expensive, so is often at the bottom of the list of priorities. I was a School Governor an sat on the H&S committee of that School, plus I gave fire safety advice to neighbouring Schools, so I have some experience. My advice is to contact the head by e-mail/writing. Tell him/her your concerns and give him a reasonable deadline to reply (5 days?) after which you will be writing to 1) the Chair of Governors (if there's one), 2) The LA if applicable, 3) Your local MP, 4) Ofsted and 5) the local fire service safety enforcement team. If you are to make this threat, you must carry it out and cc the Head into the bulk e-mail to the above addressees. Its Ofsted which will cause the most panic! Good luck
firesafety101  
#15 Posted : 04 July 2014 23:50:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Some of you may remember I took my daughter's primary school to court on an equality act issue, and I won. This appears to be similar as what is being suggested as advice, emailing, reporting, head teacher, governors etc. is what I went through before finally arriving at the court. It took me three years and I now wish I had acted immediately as that would have saved three years of poor standard care for my daughter. I did all that and got nowhere and decided never to go through all that palava in future and just go right to the top. If the advice is followed it will take a long time to get to the end and in the meantime there could be an incident where someone gets involved in a fire situation with no escape. As Messy says a call to the fire safety officer will lead to a visit within a couple of hours and that will address the issue. Please, if you will not act yourself allow me to do it, simply pm me the school location and name and I will do the rest. You do not have to be involved personally. I am passionate about fire safety having experienced the fallout from many fires, as I am sure Messy has as well. That is why I am taking this issue personally, and seriously. I would not like anything that may happen on my conscience.
Invictus  
#16 Posted : 07 July 2014 14:03:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

I don't think there is a need for anyone to get a a soap box it's a simple issue, ok if it is not dealt with there maybe grave consequences. But I still think take it up with them and let them know that you will be taking it further if they do not sort something out immediately. Then again if you haven't actioned anything by now you can gaurantee niether have they so maybe the FRS are the best port of call.
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