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Just a quick one here to gage opinion....
Our guys (on a building site) frequently forget to sign for the Risk Assessments and Method Statements (including safe systems of work) when they start on site. Often it will take a visit from myself or another manager to prompt them to read and sign.
I am rolling out a quick Toolbox talk later this year to highlight the importance of these docs, the legal requirement and how they benefit the operatives however as part of this I was considering making a small laminated card that will slip inside wallets. It will have some important reminders on there (e.g. signing RAMS, inspecting plant, signing in and out of site etc) but I wanted to know if anyone though that this may be a bit patronising, or if there are any massive problems that anyone can see?
Cheers
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ashley.willson wrote:Just a quick one here to gage opinion....
Our guys (on a building site) frequently forget to sign for the Risk Assessments and Method Statements (including safe systems of work) when they start on site. Often it will take a visit from myself or another manager to prompt them to read and sign.
I am rolling out a quick Toolbox talk later this year to highlight the importance of these docs, the legal requirement and how they benefit the operatives however as part of this I was considering making a small laminated card that will slip inside wallets. It will have some important reminders on there (e.g. signing RAMS, inspecting plant, signing in and out of site etc) but I wanted to know if anyone though that this may be a bit patronising, or if there are any massive problems that anyone can see?
Cheers
If it were me I would do the TBT now, get management involved and it people dont sign then send them home. I would bother with the laminated wallet card, they will put it in the bin, or in the wallet and never looked at again.
Who does the induction, and is there a supervisor present? Do the guys carry the RAMS themselves, or is it a fact that they dont know where to find them?
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How come none of the above is covered during site induction - Quote -when they start on site - unquote
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Ashley,
you are right to be concerned but if RAMS are not being signed or briefed and you have raised this with them what difference will another piece of paper telling them make?
I would ensure they were briefed by the project manager before they start the work and signatures are recorded then. The Project Manager is immediately responsible for the safety of the employees, this will ensure the PM's buy in, as well as ensure he is aware of the full scope of the project. Any new additional labour to the site could be briefed by a supervisor but the supervisor must know his responsibilities and ensure that a full briefing takes place and not just a read this and sign.
Russ
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The reasoning behind the cards is to reinforce the TBT and to give them something to refer to. However, the feedback regarding the idea is negative so far so that is duly noted.
The guys are always inducted on the site either by our manager or by the foreman on site (where the PC doesn't provide it), as per CDM.
Unfortunately the inductions do vary in the level of quality, especially where the PC doesn't provide an induction. However, the purpose of this is to raise everyone's awareness at all levels so that even the labourers on site know they should be reading and signing the RAMS.
This is really the last step before I start pushing managers towards the disciplinary route / not giving work to them route.
Please keep the feedback coming, but can we keep the focus on the RAMS and reminder cards specifically as opposed to veering off to inductions (although I understand the relevance).
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ashley.willson wrote:The reasoning behind the cards is to reinforce the TBT and to give them something to refer to. However, the feedback regarding the idea is negative so far so that is duly noted.
The guys are always inducted on the site either by our manager or by the foreman on site (where the PC doesn't provide it), as per CDM.
Unfortunately the inductions do vary in the level of quality, especially where the PC doesn't provide an induction. However, the purpose of this is to raise everyone's awareness at all levels so that even the labourers on site know they should be reading and signing the RAMS.
This is really the last step before I start pushing managers towards the disciplinary route / not giving work to them route.
Please keep the feedback coming, but can we keep the focus on the RAMS and reminder cards specifically as opposed to veering off to inductions (although I understand the relevance).
I think you should get the managers involved now, you know about the problem (lack of signing reading RAMS), therefore, if there is an accident on site, the investigation will lead to not having sufficient knowledge or training in the task, which will end up coming back to you in that you knew it wasnt being carried out.
I honestly dont think the laminated card will do any good, if they couldnt be bothered to read and sign the RAMS they will not refer to the card.
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Straight to senior management first and foremost and remind them about their responsibilities , it seems on the face of this a complete disregard of working going on here.
Even the most stubborn of staff know this is how it works.
if they don't want to play the game advise to get these people of site ASAP and only let back in with some retraining and thorough induction. I used to have a training company ready to spend a full day on training for certain individuals at cost to the parent company they soon come back in line
I would get this on record for all to see. Depending on your circumstances only you will know how much remit you have in your role.
Do not hang yourself but let others who clearly should know better to take responsibility. Strongly advise on the potential outcomes.
Hope this helps
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Ashley in my opinion you will never achieve perfection, do what you do now and let them see you on site and doing what you are paid for and set the example.
This is only a minor matter, make sure the majot ones are covered.
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Why the fixation with 'signing' for things - RAs/MS - no legal requirement.
Good practice to do so, if you want to keep auditors etc happy.
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Ashley
Personally, I think a card is a fairly good idea. Most of the time people don't deliberately not sign, they forget, therefore, a card as an aide memoire will help this issue.
If you think it is a good idea then go for it and don't be dissuaded by other people's opinion. We all do it in our own way within the confines of the legal framework, and that is why we have to be "competent". Have faith in your own abilities - if it doesn't work then try something else instead.
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Please note I wasnt deliberately trying to dissuade you from doing what you want to do, by as means as said above its up to you at the end of the day.
That said I am in Construction and I see this is related to building sites, so from my past experience Ive just given my opinion, I did say 'if it were me'. The guys on construction sites more often than not are not interested in paperwork, because they are a hands on trade, they just want to get on with their work.
Where we work, we are not allowed to start on site unless there is an induction and RAMS carried out, and signed for as proof of such.
Sorry if what I said was taken in the wrong way
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Reading between the lines, I'm seeing a number of points possibly worth raising.
1) The induction training could do with streamlining (delivered by the same person?) so everyone gets the same message/main points.
2) If the ops aren't picking up the paperwork, how do you know if they are working within accepted parameters/safely?
3) How much supervision are the ops getting if it is taking yourself to discover they are working without the paperwork?
4) If the guys are used to working without paperwork, what's to say they'll follow it if they do pick it up?
Toolbox Talk, yes. Laminated card, maybe. Some other incentive may work too, such as the ops can get a voucher for a free coffee/bacon roll when they collect their RA/MS. This way, they may collect the RA/MS, then all that has to be done is to try and get them to use it...?
Apologies if the questions above sound aggressive, as I finish work shortly and wanted to post before I go home, so no time to sanity check!
Hope this is of use...
Andrew
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Reading between the lines, I'm seeing a number of points possibly worth raising.
1) The induction training could do with streamlining (delivered by the same person?) so everyone gets the same message/main points.
2) If the ops aren't picking up the paperwork, how do you know if they are working within accepted parameters/safely?
3) How much supervision are the ops getting if it is taking yourself to discover they are working without the paperwork?
4) If the guys are used to working without paperwork, what's to say they'll follow it if they do pick it up?
Toolbox Talk, yes. Laminated card, maybe. Some other incentive may work too, such as the ops can get a voucher for a free coffee/bacon roll when they collect their RA/MS. This way, they may collect the RA/MS, then all that has to be done is to try and get them to use it...?
Apologies if the questions above sound aggressive, as I finish work shortly and wanted to post before I go home, so no time to sanity check!
Hope this is of use...
Andrew
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I like reminder cards.
When I was PICOW and then COSS on railway sites I had a laminated wallet-size card that listed out all the things that needed to be covered in a standard daily pre-work briefing. It was red one side and green the other, to cover the different requirements for red zone and green zone working, and I worked through it every briefing (ie, each and every day).
I have a laminated checklist card for full BA pre-donning checks, donning checks, doffing checks. I have that in front of me every time. I don't read it to see what to do next, but I do flick my eyes down it to make sure I've done it all. When my life depends on getting things done right, I want a written checklist.
Airline pilots use checklists, surgeons use checklists (http://www.who.int/patientsafety/safesurgery/ss_checklist/en/ ), even astronauts use checklists. If someone is patronised by being given a checklist, they've got serious ego problems to my mind.
As to "what difference will another piece of paper telling them make?", the NHS thinks that particular one-page WHO checklist cuts surgery deaths by more than 40% and complications by more than a third.
So I wouldn't do a card that just says "remember to read the RAMS", but a card that lists all the things that you want them to do every day or every new task is useful, in my opinion.
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achrn wrote:I like reminder cards.
When I was PICOW and then COSS on railway sites I had a laminated wallet-size card that listed out all the things that needed to be covered in a standard daily pre-work briefing. It was red one side and green the other, to cover the different requirements for red zone and green zone working, and I worked through it every briefing (ie, each and every day).
I have a laminated checklist card for full BA pre-donning checks, donning checks, doffing checks. I have that in front of me every time. I don't read it to see what to do next, but I do flick my eyes down it to make sure I've done it all. When my life depends on getting things done right, I want a written checklist.
Airline pilots use checklists, surgeons use checklists (http://www.who.int/patientsafety/safesurgery/ss_checklist/en/ ), even astronauts use checklists. If someone is patronised by being given a checklist, they've got serious ego problems to my mind.
As to "what difference will another piece of paper telling them make?", the NHS thinks that particular one-page WHO checklist cuts surgery deaths by more than 40% and complications by more than a third.
So I wouldn't do a card that just says "remember to read the RAMS", but a card that lists all the things that you want them to do every day or every new task is useful, in my opinion.
Brilliant advice. I like how you have added credible sources too. Thank you.
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We use something similar, point of work assessment, check the area prior to start see if anything as changed? briefing given on tasks, ssow in place and read/understood..all good lets start. takes a couple minutes at the start of shift, but if the cultures not right, you will get check box mentality.
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I have had a bee in my bonnet about site RAMS for a while now. We used sub contract labour only to fit curtain wall , cladding etc. The PM would write the RAMS, submit to the PC and get signed off. Fine.
On the first day of work the PC would insist that after the site induction the sub contractor would read, agree and sign off the RAMS - OK
But... the subbie has arrived on site with his tools that he believes (from experience) that he will need. Often there would be tools that were needed to "adjust" and "fettle" that would not have been included in the RAMS. Normally these bits of kit was be the highest risk (cut off saws, angle grinders, rep saws and routers). Subbies being subbies want to get the job done so will think on their feet and adapt. It then becomes impossible to supervise and manage unknown activites.
I have always thought it woudl be better to send the RAMS to the subbies to read and agree before they arrive on site and give them a chance to bring only the correct agreed tools in and give warning for the creation of any foreseen "remedial work".
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edwill7 wrote:I have had a bee in my bonnet about site RAMS for a while now. We used sub contract labour only to fit curtain wall , cladding etc. The PM would write the RAMS, submit to the PC and get signed off. Fine.
On the first day of work the PC would insist that after the site induction the sub contractor would read, agree and sign off the RAMS - OK
But... the subbie has arrived on site with his tools that he believes (from experience) that he will need. Often there would be tools that were needed to "adjust" and "fettle" that would not have been included in the RAMS. Normally these bits of kit was be the highest risk (cut off saws, angle grinders, rep saws and routers). Subbies being subbies want to get the job done so will think on their feet and adapt. It then becomes impossible to supervise and manage unknown activites.
I have always thought it woudl be better to send the RAMS to the subbies to read and agree before they arrive on site and give them a chance to bring only the correct agreed tools in and give warning for the creation of any foreseen "remedial work".
Meanwhile the subby are sitting in the induction room, waiting for the RAMS to be revised and reissued to be re signed off !!
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But if you need to fettle / adjust and these are the tools that may be used (and are appropriate to use), then it is not an unknown activity and so could be included in the first place.
Chris
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For the Op, I have to be honest I also don't think the cards will help, it sounds more a case of not wanting to do it opposed to not remembering.
They may dutifully carry the cards in their wallet / pocket, but chances are they will not use them.
Are they telling you they don't remember what to do and have they responded that a card reminding them would be of benefit. Perhaps this is a question to them if you have not already put the idea to them. Perhaps ask for their input and make them part of the solution.
Just a thought
Chris
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edwill7 wrote:
I have always thought it woudl be better to send the RAMS to the subbies to read and agree before they arrive on site and give them a chance to bring only the correct agreed tools in and give warning for the creation of any foreseen "remedial work".
That's what I've always done. I'm not sure why it's a case of "I have always thought...", just do it that way.
When I worked as a subcontractor to Network Rail, with other subcontractors below us, I always sent method statements down the chain to subbies and got their buy-in before they went up the chain to clients for approval.
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Is there a problem here? Ask /why/ the guys aren't reading / signing the 'RAMS'? If the RAMS run to twenty / thirty pages - then I can understand absolutely why they are not reading them. If they are written in legal or highly technical language - again I can understand. If they never change from one job to another (generic) then I can understand. Are you trying to inform, communicate, educate - or HIGHLIGHT key risks? Be clear what you are trying to achieve before you introduce a big stick... Make it easy, help them understand, let them see the benefits - and they will do it. (sometimes....)
Steve
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Thanks for the useful input everyone. It seems that there is some divide as to if the cards would be useful or not.
Steve - we do ask why and get the reason - "I Forgot". A poor excuse, but hence the reason to get them to have something on them that reminds everytime they open their wallet!
We are looking at inductions separately, including asking any PC we work for for a copy of their induction guidance.
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IMHO a tightening up on CSCS training would be a starting point for pre-site awareness. That way the CSCS cards would actually mean something.
It would also be handy to employ sub-contractors who employ men/women who really know something about health and safety law (HASAWA 1974 and their duties under the act). That would bring standards up right across the board.
I have been informed elsewhere on this site that if a person askes to actually see and challenge a 'blanket' site RA that they would be removed from site and replaced by another.
A risk assessment can only be written by someone who actually understand the particular trade and read and agreed by someone who understands the risks. It follows then that training in the problem.
Better to identify the real cause of trouble than run about trying to find a sticking plaster?
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Isaac
I am struggling to see what you are saying in relation to the OP?
It looks like you are challenging the CSCS scheme (which we have no control over!), and the RA itself? I am reading that right?
Please elaborate :)
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If people are 'forgetting' to read/sign the paper work that you feel is required (and in MHO a RA/Method statement and safe system of work would be considered a vital bit of paper) I would ask/tell them to leave the site on the spot and come back when the 'remember'.
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Sorry Ash, the OP paragraph 1
As I see it (not often the correct way I know)
The point I'm trying and failing to make (a fault on my part) is that the action required would seem to be a short sharp clip across the ears. That focus attention on the need to read and sign.
Paragraph 2
A bit pointless putting together a Tool-box talk later in the year when the danger of not reading, understanding and signing the paper work is in the 'here and now'. Take effective action now, get them off-site for a day to shake them up. Put the responsibility where it should be. Read/understand and sign or send them home.
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Isaac J Threadbare wrote:
The point I'm trying and failing to make (a fault on my part) is that the action required would seem to be a short sharp clip across the ears. That focus attention on the need to read and sign.
How do you cross the road?
That is, do you rigorously and always apply every step of the green cross code? That's a system devised for your safety, in a situation where there is potential for fatal injury, and where that potential is in fact realised relatively often.
If, and only if, someone absolutely every time always follows each and every single step of the green cross code (use a crossing if there is one in sight, find a safe place to cross away from parked cars bends of hill crests, stop at the kerb, look left, look right, look left again, walk straight across looking and listening as you go) are they in a morally defensible position saying things like "the action required would seem to be a short sharp clip across the ears", in my opinion.
I am yet to meet an adult that does follow the green cross code rigorously, except when accompanied by a small child. I know I don't.
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Thanks Isaac, I see where you are coming from now!
The difficulty we face here is that we are not on site every day of the week. This means that is only once we have visited site we notice, and they sign there and then solving the problem. The point of the toolbox talk is to raise awareness and educate. The reminder card is something that they can refer to when they start on a new site and it may take a while to develop it as a habit, but it may work....of course it also may be ignored and left in wallets and put through the wash!
What would your opinion towards the cards be? That's what I am really interested in at the moment
Thanks!
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I don't recall having been repeatedly asked to sign a RA to cross the road.
If the OP's own people are at fault by 'frequently forgetting' to sign what many would class as an important safety procedure I would not put off a safety talk, far from it.
We, or at least I, am talking about Health and Safety at work not a child crossing a road.
It is either a requirement to read/sign the required document or it isn't.
Rather than go on and on to these people who clearly are taking no notice of good advice or of what is required of them then one of two things are quite wrong. The message is not getting through or they, the workforce has no respect for safety or the people talking about it.
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Posts crossed the Ash
Re the cards: At least if it all goes into the fan blades, by issuing the cards you can prove that you are at least making every effort sort it out. Cards and a sooner-rather-than-later TBT mate.
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Isaac J Threadbare wrote:
If the OP's own people are at fault by 'frequently forgetting' to sign what many would class as an important safety procedure I would not put off a safety talk, far from it.
Do you think that's utterly different from the fact that you (and every other adult I observe) frequently forgets to apply the important safety procedures when they cross the road?
Isaac J Threadbare wrote:
We, or at least I, am talking about Health and Safety at work not a child crossing a road.
I am talking about important safety procedures that people frequently 'forget' to follow.
Isaac J Threadbare wrote:
Rather than go on and on to these people who clearly are taking no notice of good advice or of what is required of them then one of two things are quite wrong. The message is not getting through or they, the workforce has no respect for safety or the people talking about it.
There are more parallels than you seem willing to admit. In the crossing the road case, you know how you're supposed to do it, the method is designed to prevent you getting killed, but you still ignore the advice and do it sloppily. In the at work case, you say that people who behave similarly should be severely rebuked and have "no respect for safety".
People who fail to follow the green cross code rigorously don't do so because they want to get killed, and in my experience, the majority of people who fail to complete paperwork systems rigorously don't do so because they have no respect for safety.
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Achrn, I am talking about on-site work. I have never been asked to sign an RA to cross a road, nor how to eat hot chips.
I have however been asked (and asked others) to read/sign one or two RA's. Please go off and quote someone else for a change.
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Of course the only problem with reminder cards is remembering to read them. If you can remember to read them why are you forgetting to read/sign the RA's?
All sounds a bit twp to me.
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achrn,
for what its worth; I completely understand what you are saying.
And agree
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Put a unique (random) number on the method statement etc which has to be used by them on job cards etc in order for them to be paid for working on the job.
They will soon get the idea. I bet they never forget to complete their overtime forms properly.
Chris
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Sounds like a plan but it's a funny old world Chris
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Ashley
Always possible that some of these people are not (particularly) literate, but don't want to admit this.
Ultimately the proof is in the pudding - are they implementing whatever safe systems of work have been devised? If, yes, then why get wound up about a lack of signatures?
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Good point Peter on the face of it.
If someone is working 'safe' why bother with RA's at all.
If someone isn't particularly literate then we would come into the realms of understanding the RA and method statement. In my field method statements are of real importance and not there for show. The people really need to understand the sequence of the work and especially limits of the work in the case of a 'permit to work'. If they then sign the paper work we have at least their word that they understood the system.
If there is no need to show that anyone has read the instructions or understand the RA why bother at all. If they get home uninjured at 5pm and hurt no one the system must be working then?
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