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jarsmith83  
#1 Posted : 12 December 2014 13:02:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Dear All Your opinion required please :-) What is the opinion of safety professional with regards to the level of information that should be provided to contractors on an asbestos portal? My understanding is that Surveys are to be provided in order for contractors to make an informed decision where they can and cannot carry out intrusive works? It has transpired that the client we are working for has not managed their buildings effectively and that remedial actions/recommendations have not been complete, this has resulted in potential exposure of all of their visitors of their buildings due to debris being left in situ without effective control measures (encapsulation/removal) Question: Do we, as a contractor, have an obligation to ensure that the client has completed remedial actions detailed in asbestos surveys? Or; Is it the general opinion that it would be the client, as the responsible duty holder for this element of control, who should have ensured this, and it would be assumed by contractors as "the norm" that this would have taken place?
RayRapp  
#2 Posted : 14 December 2014 20:02:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

The owner of the building is normally responsible for managing asbestos. Any information, for example, an asbestos register or asbestos surveys, should be provided to a contractor engaged to carry out work in order they can carry out the work safely. It makes no difference how the information is provided, whether that be access to a portal or individual surveys. The client pursuant to CDM, should ensure that pre-construction information is provided to the contractor. This of course includes hazards and asbestos surveys, particularly if the work involves the fabric of the building. In which case you could expect a full R&D survey for those areas where intrusive work will take place. There is a bit of confusion in your questions in regards to the duty to manage asbestos in non-domestic buildings and the client's duty as per CMD Regs. They are two different issues as I have outlined in my previous paragraphs. If, the client does not have access to asbestos information then the basic options are as follows. First, refuse to do the work until the correct information is provided. Remembering if you do carry out the work and expose your employees or anyone to asbestos you are liable. Second, the contractor engages a surveyor to carry asbestos surveys - and presumably charge the client. Where is the CDM-C?
jarsmith83  
#3 Posted : 15 December 2014 11:09:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Hi Ray It is not CDM works, just general maintenance. I understand that surveys have to be provided, and that has happened. I am more interested in remedial measures following surveys and my following question: Question: Do we, as a contractor, have an obligation to ensure that the client has completed remedial actions detailed in asbestos surveys? Or; Is it the general opinion that it would be the client, as the responsible duty holder for this element of control, who should have ensured this, and it would be assumed by contractors as "the norm" that this would have taken place?
Xavier123  
#4 Posted : 15 December 2014 11:45:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

All too often I see the most recent asbestos survey vaunted around as though 'that's enough'. The dutyholder needs to take the information from the survey and turn it into a a management plan, including risk assessment etc. If I was given a survey by itself with no further information then I'd be dubious about their ability to manage asbestos. A surveyors recommendations are not the same as the work getting done, as you've clearly found out! Sometimes an alternative action may have been taken instead for perfectly legitimate reasons. Limited evidence of asbestos management should prompt a few more enquiries prior to work. However, if they had a proper register which had regular updates etc. i.e. evidence of management, then I'd be more secure about cracking on without significant further checking.
RayRapp  
#5 Posted : 15 December 2014 12:21:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

jarsmith If you want a concise answer please make your question simple and clear matey. For starters, maintenance work is normally classfied as a CDM activity - see HSE interpretation below. “construction work” means the carrying out of any building, civil engineering or engineering construction work and includes— (a)the construction, alteration, conversion, fitting out, commissioning, renovation, repair, upkeep, redecoration or other maintenance (including cleaning which involves the use of water or an abrasive at high pressure or the use of corrosive or toxic substances), de-commissioning, demolition or dismantling of a structure; 'Question: Do we, as a contractor, have an obligation to ensure that the client has completed remedial actions detailed in asbestos surveys?' I presume this is before work takes place - if so, the answer is no. The duty to manage asbestos lays with the owner of the building. Your interest should only be in ensuring that your employees are not exposed to the risk of disturbing ACMs. If there is evidence or a suspicion that the client as the duty holder has not carried out remedial works identified in a survey which may create uncontrolled risks to contractors or others, then you need to flag this up to the client before starting work. Once the work has been completed by the contractor it is down to the duty holder to update their asbestos management system based on what work was carried out, where, when, etc.
fiesta  
#6 Posted : 15 December 2014 12:30:45(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
fiesta

As a fit our contractor my experience in this area is that very few landlords / occupiers have a "management plan" for any Asbestos have may have in there premises. About 70% have had a recent survey, quite often only as a results of the planned works A concerning number of our clients require a full R&D survey to be completed before we start work because they have no asbestos related info at all.
bob youel  
#7 Posted : 15 December 2014 18:05:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

Again some great answers here and again its the duty holder who has the duty to manage their undertaking
jarsmith83  
#8 Posted : 16 December 2014 13:55:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

RayRapp wrote:
jarsmith If you want a concise answer please make your question simple and clear matey. For starters, maintenance work is normally classfied as a CDM activity - see HSE interpretation below. “construction work” means the carrying out of any building, civil engineering or engineering construction work and includes— (a)the construction, alteration, conversion, fitting out, commissioning, renovation, repair, upkeep, redecoration or other maintenance (including cleaning which involves the use of water or an abrasive at high pressure or the use of corrosive or toxic substances), de-commissioning, demolition or dismantling of a structure; 'Question: Do we, as a contractor, have an obligation to ensure that the client has completed remedial actions detailed in asbestos surveys?' I presume this is before work takes place - if so, the answer is no. The duty to manage asbestos lays with the owner of the building. Your interest should only be in ensuring that your employees are not exposed to the risk of disturbing ACMs. If there is evidence or a suspicion that the client as the duty holder has not carried out remedial works identified in a survey which may create uncontrolled risks to contractors or others, then you need to flag this up to the client before starting work. Once the work has been completed by the contractor it is down to the duty holder to update their asbestos management system based on what work was carried out, where, when, etc.
Hi Ray - Sorry for being so vague. Its very difficult to place certain information on the forum, it being a public domain etc. I have cut and pasted a couple of your comments that are relevant to the situation and need further clarity on. This is more of a sanity check on my part then advice I am using to provide elsewhere: "Your interest should only be in ensuring that your employees are not exposed to the risk of disturbing ACMs" - So are you saying that we should not be checking/examining information post survey i.e. where the remedial actions actual complete? This is an important point, as we only realized that there was a risk when we received the 2014 update, what still had 'risks' identified which were the same as 2013 issue. "If there is evidence or a suspicion that the client as the duty holder has not carried out remedial works identified in a survey which may create uncontrolled risks to contractors or others, then you need to flag this up to the client before starting work." - This has taken place, but the client seem to be implying we have involvement in their investigation. Whereas, my view is that we will conduct internal investigation and provide info to them on the back of ours.
jarsmith83  
#9 Posted : 16 December 2014 13:57:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

apologies for grammar above :-) where/were etc
RayRapp  
#10 Posted : 17 December 2014 08:08:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I don't really know what you mean by 'investigate' - it's not your responsibility to investigate anything other than incidents/accidents which you are involved with. It is really quite simple, if there is evidence that remedial work has not been carried out by the duty owner following an asbestos survey and it could compromise the safety of your chaps then don't do the work until you are satisfied it's safe to do so - otherwise you will be in breach of the law. If it is an on-going maintenance programme, then you should advise the duty owner of any ACMs which may have been disturbed, or any which you have identified during the course of your work. The responsibility then falls to the duty owner to rectify. Meanwhile, back to the paragraph above. In your RAMS you should articulate a process for identifying potential ACMs, disturbing them and emergency procedure just in case. I presume all work is properly supervised/managed and therefore these people should be familiar with the escalation process.
Kameliya  
#11 Posted : 17 December 2014 13:06:24(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Kameliya

I would say that it depends on the work that your contractor is about to do. If (based on the risk assessment) there might be exposition during the activities, your contractor must prepare a management plan and you - must approve it.
jarsmith83  
#12 Posted : 21 December 2014 22:16:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jarsmith83

Ok Gents - I have clearly missed an important point here. We are not working in the areas, carrying out work which will disturb Asbestos. We are carrcarrying out non intrusive works. The client has not managed ACMs allowing them to fall into poor condition, which was only pickes up upon receiving 2014 records, this in turn flagged up action from 2013 had not been complete.
RayRapp  
#13 Posted : 22 December 2014 08:15:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

You are still working even though it may not be intrusive work and there may be a potential to disturb ACMs depending on the nature of the work. Therefore you need to decide how much of a risk your personnel face because the client has not carried out remedial work as identified in their surveys.
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