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chris42  
#1 Posted : 25 March 2015 11:35:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I found a piece of lifting equipment at a site. A little hard to describe but here goes, it acts like a spreader beam. It is a plate with a number of holes to allow adjustment of the lifting points. The lower holes have a bolt through a bracket and this plate then through the bracket again. The bracket has a welded pin in its lower portion between the two side plates, with a wire rope on this pin and finally a hook on the end of that ( all times three if you include the top one).

The item was in house manufacture of a company which was then taken over by the company I work for. So access to original design is not possible.

The issue I found is the bolt going through the bracket and plate has a hole through it near the end for a split pin to prevent the nut coming off the bolt. I picked up the lack of split pin in an inspection. However since then the insurance company have been in for the LOLER inspection and said it was ok without the pin. I have been told that this was specifically mentioned to the inspector.

I feel they would not have had the hole for a split pin if not required, they do not want to put a pin in as they have to adjust it and so have to remove and replace the pin every time and they feel the inspector is happy with it the way it is. At a different site there is another one of these lifting accessories which has the pins in it.

I intend to insist there is a split pin put into it, but what are your thoughts. If the inspector is happy to sign off, should that be good enough.

Chris
Ian Bell  
#2 Posted : 25 March 2015 12:27:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell

I accept your point that the design information isn't available.

However if the item you have is the same as the item at the other site, with respect to having a locking pin/split pin inserted through the locking hole then this would suggest that a split pin is required in the item that has it missing.

If a locking split was considered necessary by the original designer, then the design intent/specification should be maintained in my view.

It should be easy enough to fit a new split pin - as such they aren't load bearing - so it should be no big issue to fit one. A typical split pin is a matter of a few pence, to save a (critical?) nut/bolt becoming disconnected and the consequences that could lead to.
hilary  
#3 Posted : 25 March 2015 12:58:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

LOLER is not an exact science unfortunately. We have our lifting equipment maintained by one organisation and our LOLER checks carried out by a different one - this way we have two sets of eyes and they will both come up with different issues at the same time but they tend to agree that it really depends on the emphasis an individual places on it.

On the other hand, my personal preference is the belt and braces approach, if it has a space for a split pin then you really should fit one - as Ian says, it's a few pence but you know then that it is right.
Urlrik  
#4 Posted : 25 March 2015 13:54:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Urlrik

Chris42 wrote:

I picked up the lack of split pin in an inspection. However since then the insurance company have been in for the LOLER inspection and said it was ok without the pin. I have been told that this was specifically mentioned to the inspector.


I have to say I am not an expert LOLER and the experience I have isn't very current, but isn't the insurance inspection different from a full LOLER inspection?

The insurance company are only looking to ensure that the risk has been brought down to a level which they are happy to act as mitigation for any residual risk. They aren't doing an inspection to ensure there is as low a risk as is practicable. Although I concede that these two would normally be the same.

This sounds to me that they consider this is a point that makes very little difference and therefore they are happy to wear that risk. As a safety professional with a different viewpoint, especially for a few pence I would be pushing for replacing the pin. However I also think its our job to let management know what the residual risk is and make the call themselves.

I guess its that difference between just hitting compliance and ensuring best practice which is always the grey area. Cost V Benefit.

Happy to be proved wrong, as I say not really my area. I do have a lot more experience with insurance and I know that I regularly ensure that we go further than we are required to by the insurers.
JohnW  
#5 Posted : 25 March 2015 14:30:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

Urlrik,

I expect Chris means LOLER statutory examination by a engineering company appointed by the insurance company. That's the arrangement my main client has, but let's see if Chris confirms that.
Ian Bell  
#6 Posted : 25 March 2015 14:33:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell

A little excessive to be arguing 'as low as reasonably practicable' and Cost v Benefit!!

If there is a split hole in the bolt, and the split pin is missing - fit a split pin!! probably a 5 minute task. Doesn't have to be any harder than that.

For a true Cost v Benefit study you need to cost out alternative options.... benefits ve drawbacks etc.

Maybe a full QRA study, Event Trees and Fault Trees as well.

Keep it sensible.
Urlrik  
#7 Posted : 25 March 2015 14:47:44(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Urlrik

Ian Bell wrote:
A little excessive to be arguing 'as low as reasonably practicable' and Cost v Benefit!!

If there is a split hole in the bolt, and the split pin is missing - fit a split pin!! probably a 5 minute task. Doesn't have to be any harder than that.

For a true Cost v Benefit study you need to cost out alternative options.... benefits ve drawbacks etc.

Maybe a full QRA study, Event Trees and Fault Trees as well.

Keep it sensible.


Sorry if I didn't make what I was saying clearer.
I agree with you, fit a split pin. I am pretty sure I said that's what I would push for. If there is a dispute with that, which it sounds like there could be then its up to management to decide IMHO.

Where I talked about the cost v benefit was a more general point about when something goes beyond compliance and into best practice. Sorry if I didn't make that clearer. I am pretty sure no one would have acted on what was a throw away comment on a discussion board by someone who said they weren't an expert, but happy to clarify.
chris42  
#8 Posted : 25 March 2015 15:06:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

quote=JohnW]Urlrik,

I expect Chris means LOLER statutory examination by a engineering company appointed by the insurance company. That's the arrangement my main client has, but let's see if Chris confirms that.



Thanks all for the replies. Yes I did mean the statutory thorough inspection.

For some reason the site are resisting putting a split pin in, we don't even have to go and get any they have access to them !!! As you all say, pennies.

There seems to be a consensus here that there is a hole for the pin, so put one in. Seems odd that the inspecting engineer did not think the same. The bracket pivots on this bolt and so a danger of the nut being wound off, hence why it was designed with a split pin, I assume.

My first thought was he had not seen the hole as it was full of gunk, but they pointed it out to him.

Of course I have in the past said if the inspecting engineer has said something is damaged and needs repair, don't argue , just get it done. I may be setting a double standard here.

Anyway thanks all for taking the time to comment.

Chris




chris42  
#9 Posted : 25 March 2015 15:13:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42


Sorry "Thorough examination"

Chris
John D C  
#10 Posted : 25 March 2015 16:04:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
John D C

From the description in the original post it would appear that the bolt with the missing pin is to allow for changing the position of the lifting point. If this change occurs frequently then the guys might be just finding the split pin removal and replacement an inconvenience. Hence their reluctance to have it fitted. Not having access to the original design criteria it is difficult to be sure why the split pin was required. Might it have been a bit of overkill after all many shackles etc used in lifting have a type of bolt fitted without split pins being used.
If the bolt is very seldom removed then I suggest as others have said- fit the split pin as it will only take a minute.

John C
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