Rank: Forum user 
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Hi all
Wonder if anyone can share any info please? We are M & E contractors. Subject of face fit testing for RPE came up yesterday and most of the guys have decided to have a "beard growing" competition. Obviously, the face fit tests will not be adequate as a result of this. Do we make it a mandatory requirement to "ban the beard"? Powered RPE to get round the problem would be too costly, I reckon?
Cheers
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If you want to rely on negative pressure face masks then you need to face fit test and allowing people to grow beards compromises this process. Positive pressure respirators can be worn with beards and do not require face fit testing. If you do a lot of work requiring RPE then a positive pressure respirator can work out more economical than for example a disposable face masks which you would be discarded at least every shift if not several times during a shift.
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We don't do a lot of RPE work really, mostly via ceiling tiles and cable chasing, so rely on the negative pressure ones.
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Hi Lorraine
For whatever reason the message search facility doesn't appear to be working at present, and I can't remember whether I read about case on chat forum or elsewhere.
However, there's a very recent employment case where employer deemed to have fairly dismissed employee who refused to remove their beard, despite needing to wear RPE.
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peter gotch wrote:Hi Lorraine
For whatever reason the message search facility doesn't appear to be working at present, and I can't remember whether I read about case on chat forum or elsewhere.
However, there's a very recent employment case where employer deemed to have fairly dismissed employee who refused to remove their beard, despite needing to wear RPE. Peter, If you do re-find this reference I would be very interested, as I'm about to set up a face-fit programme at a client and I know that some will fail due to a liking for facial stubble like Desperate Dan.
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Hi,
I posted about this a while back and to be honest its still an issue. we had several discussions at work about how enforceable it was to insist people were clean shaven and our Manager that deals with HR issues got onto our employment solicitor who said it was unenforceable unless it was written into the persons contract and may lead to an employment tribunal which we'd loose.
Our Directors decided not to insist on clean shaven, so we ended up face fit testing everything from clean shaven to Santa's full beard! In my opinion a waste of time, but we did try to educate everyone about the importance of being clean shaven when using a mask in the hope that they would choose to do this. We only had one failure of someone admitting to tasting the bitrex. If it was my decision I would have taken the risk on the tribunal.
If you find the recent court case please share as it would help.
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Brown900431
“Our Directors decided not to insist on clean shaven, so we ended up face fit testing everything from clean shaven to Santa's full beard!” ooh that’s sailing on thin ice! The real issue is consistency as beards will grow from day to day and what might pass a test on one day, could fail a few days later. You could of course insist that they be face fit tested every time that they use RPE!
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That case is in Australia.
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Indeed my thoughts Kate, where the culture is, er, different. I would be very surprised if this case had the same outcome in the UK, especially if the employee was of a certain religious persuasion.
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Thank you Peter Gotch. Pity it's not UK law.
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The legal principles are very similar in Australia to the U.K. and in general across the English speaking or British influenced globe, so that for example the U.S. gives as much deference to Donoghue v Stevenson as the U.K. and Commonwealth states.
Of course, this recent case is not an authoritative judgment. However, judgments of e.g. the House of Lords have been considered authoritative elsewhere.
Even if the employee was of a certain religious persuasion, I think it probable that a U.K. Employment Tribunal (or on appeal Court) would be likely to come to a similar decision.
Judgments in cases involving conflict between equal opportunities legislation and health and safety requirements have been discussed several times before on this forum, but the search engine still does not seem to be working. Try searching for "curly" or "sikh" when it's back up and running. The original debate started in 2000 on the "old" forum, and was kicked off by an Aussie.
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Just to clarify, our issue does not arise from religious beliefs, but personal choice to grow a beard. I think we're going to get round this by getting the pressure RPE which does not require a face fit test. Then they can grow to Rasputin levels to their hearts content! :-)
Thanks for all comments.
Kind regards
Lorraine
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A Kurdziel wrote:If you want to rely on negative pressure face masks then you need to face fit test and allowing people to grow beards compromises this process. Positive pressure respirators can be worn with beards and do not require face fit testing. If you do a lot of work requiring RPE then a positive pressure respirator can work out more economical than for example a disposable face masks which you would be discarded at least every shift if not several times during a shift. Hi, my take on the HSE guidance was that even positive pressure face masks require fit testing? Have you got a different paper I can refer too? Thanks Phil ""Why do facepieces used with positive pressure breathing apparatus require fit testing? Isn't the leakage always outwards? 36 Fit testing a full face mask, which is used with a positive pressure breathing apparatus, is necessary because the consequences of facepiece leakage can be extremely serious since these types of devices are more likely to be used in extremely hazardous environments; even brief leaks can cause serious exposure. Studies have shown that during heavy exertion, it is possible for the pressure inside the facepiece to momentarily become negative in relation to the outside atmosphere. If the faceseal is not good this could result in inward leakage of extremely hazardous air.""
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"Even if the employee was of a certain religious persuasion, I think it probable that a U.K. Employment Tribunal (or on appeal Court) would be likely to come to a similar decision"
That would be why Sikhs do not have to wear crash helmets then.....
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JohnMurray wrote:"Even if the employee was of a certain religious persuasion, I think it probable that a U.K. Employment Tribunal (or on appeal Court) would be likely to come to a similar decision"
That would be why Sikhs do not have to wear crash helmets then..... Nor hard hats in construction...the difference is there is explicit legislation which absolves Sikhs.
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HeO2 wrote:A Kurdziel wrote:If you want to rely on negative pressure face masks then you need to face fit test and allowing people to grow beards compromises this process. Positive pressure respirators can be worn with beards and do not require face fit testing. If you do a lot of work requiring RPE then a positive pressure respirator can work out more economical than for example a disposable face masks which you would be discarded at least every shift if not several times during a shift. Hi, my take on the HSE guidance was that even positive pressure face masks require fit testing? Have you got a different paper I can refer too? Thanks Phil ""Why do facepieces used with positive pressure breathing apparatus require fit testing? Isn't the leakage always outwards? 36 Fit testing a full face mask, which is used with a positive pressure breathing apparatus, is necessary because the consequences of facepiece leakage can be extremely serious since these types of devices are more likely to be used in extremely hazardous environments; even brief leaks can cause serious exposure. Studies have shown that during heavy exertion, it is possible for the pressure inside the facepiece to momentarily become negative in relation to the outside atmosphere. If the faceseal is not good this could result in inward leakage of extremely hazardous air."" See the appendix in the latest HSE guidance, it is really clear (a clear bit of guidance from the HSE woohoo) http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/hsg53.htm
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HeO2 wrote:A Kurdziel wrote:If you want to rely on negative pressure face masks then you need to face fit test and allowing people to grow beards compromises this process. Positive pressure respirators can be worn with beards and do not require face fit testing. If you do a lot of work requiring RPE then a positive pressure respirator can work out more economical than for example a disposable face masks which you would be discarded at least every shift if not several times during a shift. Hi, my take on the HSE guidance was that even positive pressure face masks require fit testing? Have you got a different paper I can refer too? Thanks Phil By positive pressure RPE I mean something like a hood or visor rather than a tight fitting face mask. It relies on the air being forced across the face and being at a positive pressure in relation to the air outside the hood/visor area. There is no seal between the face and the respirator. Therefore this is nothing to face fit test. You do have to make sure that the respirator is working ie it creating a positive pressure and that the filters that supply the air are working but that is not a face fit test. See page 35 of the HSE document HSG 53 which clearly states that a hood/visor type respirator does not require face fit testing. ""Why do facepieces used with positive pressure breathing apparatus require fit testing? Isn't the leakage always outwards? 36 Fit testing a full face mask, which is used with a positive pressure breathing apparatus, is necessary because the consequences of facepiece leakage can be extremely serious since these types of devices are more likely to be used in extremely hazardous environments; even brief leaks can cause serious exposure. Studies have shown that during heavy exertion, it is possible for the pressure inside the facepiece to momentarily become negative in relation to the outside atmosphere. If the faceseal is not good this could result in inward leakage of extremely hazardous air.""
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I think I'll try suggesting to our senior managers that a face fit test is done every time an employee puts on a face mask!
Just to see the look on their faces!! LOL!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Lorrainelee wrote:Just to clarify, our issue does not arise from religious beliefs, but personal choice to grow a beard. I think we're going to get round this by getting the pressure RPE which does not require a face fit test. Then they can grow to Rasputin levels to their hearts content! :-)
Thanks for all comments.
Kind regards
Lorraine Well done you for allowing personal choice.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Just read the 'scuba diving' post; words fail me, so very sad,
John
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By the way, my previous post is a reference to Andy Kurdziel's at #20
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Ray
One of the authoritative judgments is about a Sikh working in a steel stockholders where the exception for construction workers does not apply.
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Peter Thanks, not aware of that particular case. Incidentally, I read recently the HSE are considering widening the scope of the exemption for Sikhs not to wear hard hats on construction sites. As I commented in a previous post - the UK is very different than Oz. http://www.healthandsafe...hard-hat-exemption-plans
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RayRapp wrote:Peter Thanks, not aware of that particular case. Incidentally, I read recently the HSE are considering widening the scope of the exemption for Sikhs not to wear hard hats on construction sites. As I commented in a previous post - the UK is very different than Oz. http://www.healthandsafe...hard-hat-exemption-plans I read the article and started to read the follow-up article (http://www.healthandsafetyatwork.com/hsw/content/refusal-wear-ppe) but I was cut off just as it got to the religious objections to shaving of beards to enable staff to use RPE. As I am not a subscriber can someone who has seen the whole article share with us what conclusion it reached.
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