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Nimble057  
#1 Posted : 22 June 2015 13:33:21(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Nimble057


Views please; being rowing since excel last week over the level of competence for managers conducting risk assessments.

Good friend looking exceedingly burnt out from workload due to incompetent managers and board; by what I could ascertain.

The company in question turnover of 20-45 million has 3500+ employees; nationwide; working in complex environments supplying cleaning; basic soft services and security staff.

1 Safety manager.

Line managers are being expected to conduct all risk assessments.

Given the nature of the work and the size of the company I'd suggest that as a minimum the managers conducting the risk assessments should have IOSH managing safely or equivalent.

They've currently nothing.

He's getting push back from the board despite throwing a dozen prosecutions which could be easily related across to the present company.

Any comments either way greatly appreciated.

walker  
#2 Posted : 22 June 2015 13:39:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

I'd agree, companyhas a duty to provide RAs that are suitable & sufficent: you need competence to do that and you are not born with it.

Managing safely, for me would be rock bottom acceptability.



Barrie(Badger)Etter  
#3 Posted : 22 June 2015 13:41:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Barrie(Badger)Etter

Safety manager does a refresher on RA's to ensure they are up to current thinking and then does a presentation to line managers (LM) with hands on walk round talking good and bad points on how to produce a good RA. It will also help to have a good back up sheet to aid the timid LM's so they give a good report of themselves.

Badger
Ron Hunter  
#4 Posted : 22 June 2015 14:47:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

A thorny issue. Bottom line for me is that Risk Assessment has to be a Team effort. R/A produced in isolation leads to inconsistency and lack of authenticity.
Important to have a representative sample of exemplar assessments for people to work to.
The Organisation also has to have a mechanism to constructively challenge existing work practices and to manage the residual actions arising (Am I doing enough to reduce risk = No).

IMHO the IOSH Managing Safely Course is not by any means an ideal route to "competence" in risk assessment. The Course Assignment scoring lacks sufficient discrimination, and the R/A topic leaps all over the place within the presentation. External training provision may add additional 'disconnect' between the course content and your own business.

You'd be better investing in your own instruction and workshops and presenting it yourself.
Xavier123  
#5 Posted : 22 June 2015 15:21:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

I'm with Ron.
In house likely better as can keep focus on known company risks and the company policies/methodologies. The IOSH course is arguably two days too long for this and too broad.

BUT having nothing in place is a big gap in their current arrangements and one which will not only increase the chances of an incident but also utterly leave them vulnerable in the spotlight that will be shone upon them in the aftermath of that incident.
That 1 Safety Manager cannot reasonably be expected to review all RA's produced by the line managers....which, lets face it, are only likely to be generic rehashes unless someone has really instructed them in what to look for and consider.
dan_ellis  
#6 Posted : 22 June 2015 15:54:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
dan_ellis

I also agree that the best RA's involve staff directly as they do the works all day everyday, so liasion is key! Dependant on the training the supervisors have recieved. I work I Construction and my Site Managers can complete RA's and they have attended a SMSTS or supervisors on SSTS course which covers them. Not sure what sector you are in specifically...
ashleywillson  
#7 Posted : 22 June 2015 16:06:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ashleywillson

RA should, in my opinion, be collaborative from H&S and the people "on the ground". Your mate could ask for all managers to attend an in house course run by him (just a couple of hours or so) on Risk Assessing, but then for them to be truly effective he would need to review them from a H&S point of view.

But having an H&S qual under their belt wouldn't hurt and would probably make your mates life a lot easier!
bob youel  
#8 Posted : 22 June 2015 16:10:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

RH has got it 100% right and others that have posted have great points to take into consider

personally I would not really recommend any of the current day to day courses that are being marketed nor the HSE's guidance
Des.Neil  
#9 Posted : 22 June 2015 16:12:57(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Des.Neil

Sounds to me like your friend is up against it! If the senior managers do not accept that R/A development is key to loss prevention (never mind a duty of care) then he could be flogging a dead horse.
As The one safety manager he will need support at all levels and perhaps he would benefit from some leadership training himself, this is not a criticism but I am witnessing the same scenario with a company we share a facility with.
I would agree with recent replies here that in house training is more realistic as he wouldn't get resource support for external costs. I would introduce R/A as part of a mandatory set of training.
He could also look for support in the workforce by introducing a safety committee with membership coming from subject matter experts (SMEs) as these are the people you want when creating an effective R/A. Can I ask who approves the existing R/A ? Sometimes the person signing them requires a reminder of the consequences of poorly written or ineffective R/As. Again your friend has my sympathy
aud  
#10 Posted : 22 June 2015 18:02:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
aud

Warning: Long lecture ahead.
This is a tricky one, as there may also be an issue of ‘competency’ relating to safety practitioners too, so what I have to say may upset an applecart or two.

The HSE have repeatedly said for years that risk assessment is 1. simple and 2. needs no special training providing that it is done by those who know the work / process. This has tended to be summarised (by HSE) as ‘RA done by line managers’.
However (sorry Mr Gove!) they are also the first to stand on the steps of court houses and make damning comment about lack of, or inadequate, RAs.

So. What IS competence to assess risk?
What strategy or processes does the business of your friend have ALREADY for assessing and managing risk? What strategy or tactics would work – and maybe better that existing one(s).

I ask this because we – practitioners – are not, IMO, either well-trained or have a common view of this in the first place (refer to various threads in this and LinkedIn H&S groups) so how can we judge?

There is no commercial training available to my knowledge which provides useful RA competency – the IOSH Managing Safely course is appalling, and the methodology used is likely to conflict with the in-house approach at least to some degree.

The method taught by IOSH (and possibly NEBOSH although I only judge this on how recent students have approached RA) is also a world away from what the HSE say. As someone has asked on this forum recently – who says which is correct? (Personally I veer towards the HSE as they are the enforcer, although I can see why some may disagree).

So in terms of getting managers / supervisors ABLE to assess risk, it will have to be done in-house. First point.

Before this can be done, strategy and methodology need to be agreed and adopted. There are far too many risk assessment record forms around,(operational) and far too few plans on where these are going to take us (strategic & tactical).

This is why I would start with the safety practitioner. Waving the ‘scary stick’ at executives clearly didn’t work (doesn’t usually) so influencing style may need help. The skills and style to implement the following may not come naturally either, and I doubt ‘safety school’ included much.

A large organisation with just 1 SP as described means they HAVE to be strategic.
If the SP was to carefully analyse the situation (industry, sector, size, risk profile, or general culture – these are all relevant) and think how ‘it’ (RA) would look when it was ‘finished’, then work backwards to set out all the steps and stages required, this would produce a plan.
(Lets hope that doesn’t look like 000’s of RA forms all filed on a central database . . .)

Call this a strategy, plan whatever, and set out the framework to get there (who, when, how, (training?) and what methods (forms) are indicated – personal preference of the SP no doubt) and present this to the board. The ‘who does what’ part should include that the board will have an overseeing role, so how will the SP help with this? What information will the SP be able to / want to collate and how will this look to the board? A question I have been asked is “have we done all our risk assessments?”, although nonsense in many ways, gives an insight into boardroom expectations. Better to have a plan and measure against that.

If you are already controlling risk to any degree (usually the case) it is a wearisome process to “assess” as if you were just starting out, using a tedious form. Instead take the current RCMs and analyse those – with the SP – to ask “is this enough?” and “can or should we do more?” This is where I might start in an organisation today still struggling with RA (It is over 20 years ago since this was ‘sprung’ on a waiting world – we need to move with the times!). From the information given on the organisation in the question, I would focus on ‘occupations’ as a way of grouping for assessment purposes. That’s all I’ll say on that for now!

The aim is for the SP to set up the big picture and the method, and then arrange for that to be embedded across managers. This may be via workshops (please don’t call it RA training) or even SP / manager coaching sessions. Start with the easiest and work on successes. Avoid trying to train managers in “RA”. Encourage them to make safety observations and decisions around their own operational area. Make it real, try to make it ‘different’. See if you can even not even mention the “RA” word very much – sneaky nudges. A prize if you can avoid the word ‘hazard’ too!

Maybe now you see why I started with the SP competency question.
This is a great opportunity to show mettle.

Lecture over.
Ian A-H  
#11 Posted : 22 June 2015 18:53:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Ian  A-H

What she (^) said!

Always remember, "risk assessment" is a verb, not a noun.

Ian
RayRapp  
#12 Posted : 23 June 2015 08:31:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Interesting debate. For me it's about ownership and education. I believe that front line managers need to be responsible for conducting RAs with support from a h&s person. RAs are not rocket science, but they do need some basic knowledge of the processes if they are to become a meaningful control. This can be provided initially by a competent h&s person. The danger with RAs if not conducted properly is they become nothing more than 'paper' safety.
Xavier123  
#13 Posted : 23 June 2015 08:33:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Xavier123

I spend a fair bit of time on this forum pointing out the logical fallacy that follows when someone asks if they need to complete a risk assessment if the risk in question is low....
SHV  
#14 Posted : 23 June 2015 11:01:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SHV

I agree with Ron, However in my past experience, rarely i saw the all people to be involved in RA (i mean Operational people) Line Manager need to know that how to perform the RA either attend BSC RA course, or equivalent, but still need OHS support during conducting RA.

SHV
Ron Hunter  
#15 Posted : 23 June 2015 13:31:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

As others here allude, the necessary involvement of a 'H&S person' is also debatable.
.
The further off the beaten track you go (in terms of specialist industry or cutting edge technology) so the assessor becomes more and more reliant on the specialist industry body or learned colleagues to determine what might be considered reasonably practicable.
A Kurdziel  
#16 Posted : 24 June 2015 13:55:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Like #10’s comments even if they are long!
My tuppenith worth is that:
1.The people who have knowledge of the work should take the lead in assessing the risks. You can’t have someone in an office, miles away trying to second guess what actually happens on the shop floor.
2.These people need support and training to understand what the process (yes a process not a form) is all about. Like HSE the emphasis shouild be on the basic principles but they must be told how you (the employer) expect them to be applied in their circumstances. Don’t ask them to start with blank sheet of paper: look at what you are doing already and build on that.
3.But the third part of competence is the attitude of the people doing the assessment-this is the tricky bit. There are good guys and there are the sort that whatever you tell them, however much you explain, they will try to do it the quickest, cheapest, sloppiest way they can get away with. These people are not competent to do risk assessments.
Jo963  
#17 Posted : 26 June 2015 22:10:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Jo963

I rarely venture into these forums, but some of the views on here are refreshing. My faith is restored..
firesafety101  
#18 Posted : 27 June 2015 17:55:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Some years ago I joined a bus company as H&S Coordinator and found they had no risk assessments.

I was tasked with sorting that out.

I organised training for trade union safety reps that was free and training for managers with a trqining organisation.

I developed the risk assessment templates and once all trained accompanied them all on their first rist assessments then left them to it.

Seemed to work, and I did the fire risk assessments.
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