I need to bring in an external consultant to do some fire risk assessments at a number of locations. The problem I have is with judging competence of prospective consultants. I have recently borrowed a copy of the text book for the NEBOSH fire cert, and although I only skim read it, it does not seem to address the issues we potentially have. In fact it seemed to cover the work I did at general Diploma level with some additional material from government guidance docs, I have read. So I'm a little concerned about bringing in someone who has just been on the NEBOSH course. When I say "Just" I mean no offence, but it did not seem to cover what we have. It covered compartmentalisation, but what we have may have been deemed acceptable years ago for all I know. They are in the main older buildings, and the work area is segregated from the offices by what appears to be a fire resisting wall. The wall goes right up to the roof with no gap at the top. However over the years it looks like fire doors have been bodged ( gaps too big), Standard windows put in, normal doors put in and even some doors removed to anti chambers which are not sealed to the floor above ( would allow spread of smoke and heat). My view is this is all wrong, however evacuation times are quite quick, so not sure about how important it is. The company have suggested sending me on the course, which I would love to do. However I don't feel they would act on my findings and I don't feel the course would give me enough incontrovertible knowledge to definitively decide if there is an issue. Hence I want to go external. What should I be asking for in terms of qualifications and experience? What sort of money will we bee looking at day rate or job rate (you can look around all the building in under two hours (each building that is)). Any help is appreciated Chris

I agree with Stuart, I would also be looking for someone with general fire management and FRA knowledge and qualifications, such as a former fire service officer. Going rate for a competent FRA consultant in London area is £25-30 ph.

I agree with Bob, in my experience ex firemen are no more competent to properly assess fire risks than experienced safety consultants. Most firemen are good at practical issues, but have no more knowledge of fire engineering than anybody else. Its a case the uniform implies more competence than is the reality. In my area for example, a routine watch fireman isn't likely to have any experience of the oil and gas industry etc and the design reasons why certain fire safety decisions are made. Firemen based close to a petro-chemical sites might have a bit more knowledge, as they visit sites to become familiar with layouts etc.

Ask a few consultancies to put forward their proposals based on your specification, including references that you should follow up. Just like IOSH membership even a Chartered level is no guarantee of competence in all aspects of H&S, so membership of a recognised fire body does not in itself prove competence to to the job you want. The fire resisting wall is quite likely to have been erected to comply with property protection requirements, not life safety. If your requirement is to look at business protection this must be clearly specified to any consultant as the default position will be compliance with RRFSO.

I also take offence at generalising ex fire fighters as non competent for fra. I left the brigade after 25 years service and have since worked for 25 years as Fire & Safety consultant, having attended many courses including fire risk assessment. I use my knowledge previously gained during attendances at the Fire Service College, including (Fire Prevention) and training as fire investigation officer. I carry out fire risk assessments however not a member of any register as I feel some of those who are on the register/s are not as competent as they should be. IMHO fire risk assessor registers are generally a money making opportunity. I believe my fire investigation experiences have improved my fire risk assessments as I know how fires actually behave depending upon conditions. Also my fire fighting experiences make me more aware than some of how fire starts and travels therefore I can better advise on precautions. Like mssy I was conducting fire risk assessments under the old Workplace Regs. while working in an industrial setting, but even before those Regs. I was fire risk assessing, since 1990 when I joined an engineering motor manufacturer.

I don't think anybody is disputing that some ex firemen are very competent fire risk assessors - but equally I have come across many who have ridden the tender for many years and not developed skills beyond that. As with many areas of fire/safety there is good and bad in all, despite academic or other qualifications.

It is a minefield out there for the poor Responsible Person isn't it? It is true, that a firefighter (or fire officer) with little or no fire safety experience may not be able to provide a suitable FRA, but many will wing it and use their experience and dramatic anecdotes to market their abilities. Its also true to say that many H&S and Facilities experts can be just as poor. So where does this leave someone who is trying to source the right help? Qualifications can be misleading. Someone may have an IFE (Institution of Fire Engineers) qualification & initials after their name. This all sounds promising, but this is a one-off exam and there's no need to maintain CPD to stay current. So the IFE status may be 30 years old and its holder may be completely out of date. However, to be on a fire risk register does require an interview, proof of CPD and sometimes demonstrating competence whilst completing a FRA inspection in front of an IFE examiner. Like Firesafety101, I am not on a register. I am employed and do not need to jump through the hoops of registration to get work, so I have no need. I am also baffled by the sheer amount of schemes, and like the old Betamax versus VHS video format battle in the 70s/80s, I am waiting to see which one emerges as the preeminent scheme. However, I do believe the IFE register is a a good scheme and one that can be relied on. I know a number of people on it, and I also know some have failed to achieve that status. I have to say, that the IFE have got it spot on in 100% of those assessments as those who failed were winging it - including a H&S consultant who was already compiling appallingly bad FRAs (IMHO).

Well how very interesting information from you all. I have been looking at posts on this site for a number of years and feel the likes of Firesafety101 and Mssy give good advice, so would trust their FRA's. However they both point out they are not on the IFE register. So how do you find a Mssy or FireSafety101. I had not actually considered the idea of a specification as noted by David in #7. To be honest I was thinking more about people, than minimising building damage. It is a good point about why the fire wall may be there. That is the reason why I feel sending me on the course would not help. I don't think it would give me the information to decide if the wall with its changed fixtures are a real problem or not. Evacuation times are around a minute, but most people can be out of the building in 20 or 30 seconds if they want. Which obviously questions the need for the fire wall and the fixtures in it to be fire resistant. Changing these I think would cost around £10k, hence why I want to be sure of the advice. Interestingly no one who has done the NEBOSH course has said anything one way or another about the course, and if it truly would provide enough info to decide. I think as said a FRA who may have been in the fire service may or may not be a bonus (may just have the gift of the gab). But yes I guess it would be better than if they had been a milkman for 20 years. Though once trained no reason why a milkman (or milkwoman) could not do a good job. Thanks for giving me an idea of the costs, both on here and via PM, it is nice to have some sort of idea. Also thanks for the recommendation via PM. We have a number of locations so once I have found a suitable candidate, I think I will get one done and see what I think. Thank you all for your inputs. All I have to do now is convince the MD to actually spend money on something he is not convinced he needs ( other Directors understand, but not him). Chris

I too have done the NEBOSH Fire Cert and there is a lot to take in. It is very much in depth, it was hard work and I am proud I went and did it. I wouldn't knock it until you've tried it personally. I am now looking at doing a conversion course to fire safety manager. As mentioned, competence is a mixture of things- plenty of people don't have the quals, experience or memberships to things- it doesn't make them unsuitable for a task. I would just keep my options open.

Thanks stonecold. Having no safety experience let alone fire safety experience did seem to add to the pressure, but I got one of the highest marks in the country for my practical in 2012- not bad for a numpty! Vulcan do a conversion course I would like to do, but might get the Diploma out of the way first

I believe someone who has some ground experience would pick up on this

noting all the changes to the structure and apparent lack of reliable structural info as to what is what get a structural report carried out that gives U a start line and go from there remembering that the basics are the most important e.g. if a fire cannot start accidently or otherwise in the first place and the rules are properly enforced by managers that is a very large problem out of the way before U go any further remembering that it is life first and property second Toe; thanks - it was good to look at and confirmed to me that NEBOSH has not changed since my exam days as an aside; I never waste day to day course attendees* [*staff, supervisors and middle/low ranking managers] time by quoting the law at them nor British Standards etc. as, in my experience, they just do not need to know nor want to know as they are more interested in finding out what they can do to stop a fire starting in the first place and manage a fire if 1 should start ----- what I find is that all exam/training organisations block out papers with various sets of jargon / information & add to courses etc. just to justify their place and costs best of luck to all

Toe, thanks for that link. I would be able to attempt every one of the questions but without pre exam study would probably fail. I am sure however that with a few hours preparation I would gain a rather high pass mark. Command words, I didn't know what they are until yesterday and like David I think the approved trainers need to be supported, mainly to justify the training course and cost?

Thanks Toe that was interesting and yes the NEBOSH question style has not changed has it. I will have a closer look at that paper on the weekend. A few people on various past threads have mentioned doing the NEBOSH Fire Cert then doing a conversion managers course with Vulcan. Do you have to do the NEBOSH first or do Vulcan have their on initial training. It is just that I did my Diploma in 2008, so I would have to re-sit the general part as I understand you are only exempt for 5 years. However as I have effectively done this twice already at Cert then Dip, this is money for old rope and not keen to play NEBOSH's game. I only had a relatively short time to read the text book generally, but did spend a little longer on the bit about compartmentalisation. It just concerned me a little that it did not comment on what you find in an older building. I'm fairly sure what we currently have would not meet current planning standards, but how do you judge days gone by and was a little surprised the book seemed to make no comment. Yet all those that do these assessments must be faced with this all the time. Thanks for all the comments and discussion. Someone who has done the fire Cert has kindly agreed to look at some greater detail of the situation and provide a yes or no answer to would they be able to decide (not do the assessment for me, or even tell me what they would decide, but could they decide if it was or not an issue). Chris

Thanks SW it is good to know there is another route I may eventually take. Chris

agree with Bobs post 4, accompanied with Fire Risk Assessment training from your local fire and rescue service should suffice in a reasonably low risk environment. There is also specialist industry guidance in some areas - http://www.ciwm.co.uk/wish_web Part of competence is the ability to translate written information into practice and to know when to seek further guidance

Thanks Ian, I had not thought of that, however I know our insurance company have been to a number of our sites and have not even asked about fire risk assessments. Which thinking about it is odd. I would still need a Fire Risk assessment at the end of the day, but I guess they may have a view on the wall. Cheers Chris