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Invictus  
#1 Posted : 07 August 2015 12:19:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

When does a domestic dwelling become commercial.

I employed to complete fire assessments and come across a situation and wondering your thoughts.

The dwelling is a house, landlord owned, rented by a business for tenets with learning disbilities and our staff different from the business who rent it support the tenents.

1. what is our responsibility for our employees
2. is it a domestic dwelling or commercial.
3. is it required to have self closers on the fire doors.
4. Who completes the fire R/A
Safety Smurf  
#2 Posted : 07 August 2015 12:29:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Hi Invictus,

As far as the planning office are concerned it will probably still be banded as domestic. however, as business is being conducted there think of it as commercial as it is a business that is renting the property.
1. as for any other workplace.
2. regardless, it's a workplace.
3. Not necessarily a legal requirement but VERY STRONGLY recommended as high risk occupants are sleeping there.
4. depends largely on the lease. in all likelihood it's a repairing and maintaining lease and therefore you have control of the premises and therefore the duty to carry out the FRA.

Hope that helps.
Invictus  
#3 Posted : 07 August 2015 12:38:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

They have removed the self closers, in a report I read it said 'wedges are being used to keep doors open and this prcatice must stop as fire doors are an integral part of fire safety. Fire doors cannot be wedged as clsouing them is then down to human error'. Then instead of wedgeing them the people who own the house took the closers off. So now they just stay open and staff have to close them.
Safety Smurf  
#4 Posted : 07 August 2015 12:41:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

Sounds like you are on very dodgy ground there. Check the lease and find out who has control of the premises.
jwk  
#5 Posted : 07 August 2015 12:56:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Is it registered as a care service? If it is it is very definitely commercial for the purposes of fire safety. Otherwise I do agree with the Smurf; it does sound like a workplace to me whether registered or not,

John
Invictus  
#6 Posted : 07 August 2015 13:01:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

I know we don't own it, but we supply support staff.

I think it is a business in that sense, but as we only supply the support staff do we need to R/A it is it up to the business or is it the landlord.

To all sense and purposes the poepl with learning disbilities have the choice to live there or not.
Safety Smurf  
#7 Posted : 07 August 2015 13:19:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

sounds like the business should be carrying out the FRA and co-operating with you by making you aware of the significant findings and the control measures.

Is the building staffed 24hrs?
Invictus  
#8 Posted : 07 August 2015 13:49:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Yea 24 hour manned. I'm going to come at it another way and say I carried out a health and safety audit and raise these matters in the report.
Steve e ashton  
#9 Posted : 07 August 2015 14:47:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

I'm sure someone will come along with chapter and verse to prove me wrong, but I am almost certain the guidance has been amended and does NOT require self closers on bedroom doors...(kitchen doors may be different but I don't have the standard with me at the moment..)

The premises are domestic dwellings for the people living there. The business that rents them from the owner and to the tenants is both landlord and tenant, and will need to ensure the building, fire, gas etc safety standards are suitable for the type of tenant. With 24\7 staffing it appears the premises are better catered for than most in this day and age...

Hope this helps steer in the right direction... We need to avoid coming across as being obstructive unless we absolutely must and we are absolutely certain of the facts and the standards we are relying on.
Safety Smurf  
#10 Posted : 07 August 2015 14:57:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Safety Smurf

the level of risk to sleeping residents with learning disabilities is sufficient to warrant self closers on the doors.
Psycho  
#11 Posted : 07 August 2015 15:48:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Psycho

as this sounds a bit like a care home type of place
You could use HTM 05-02 Table 6

Doors to be fitted with free swing self closing devices on bedrooms provided for those that are suffering from mental illness or people with learning disabilities

These self closers are not to be confused with a normal sprug self closer, these things operate a door as normal then they stiffen up and become like a self closer when a detector goes off.
firesafety101  
#12 Posted : 07 August 2015 16:21:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Invictus, this one worries me on two counts.

1. You are doing fire risk assessments and don't know what tou are assessing. Don't want to knock you too much because as least you know you need to know more and are asking the question here.

2. I am concerned about the fire doors and the mention of sleeping risk.

If I were you I would not hesitate in notifying the fire and rescue service, they need to know what is going on there.

The above is my personal opinion and based entirely on the information supplied on this thread.

Steve e ashton  
#13 Posted : 07 August 2015 18:22:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

Sorry but I disagree. The situation described appears to be someone's home. Not 'a home'... Their home! The fact they have a team of carers coming in providing domiciliary care should not be taken as making the place an institution. How many of you advocating self closers fit them to the doors on your kids bedrooms, or on the guest bedroom when your gran comes to stay?

Supported living in the community is about making sure people can live as normal a life as possible without being institionalised... No big safety warnings on both faces of the doors saying fire door keep shut, no self closers, and no unnecessary restrictions on movement. Some may not like it, the risk may be slightly higher than it is for 'normal' people, but that is just one of the side effects of their condition, and probably not the most impactful!

Having doors they can open or close at will is part of normal living. And if someone wants to sleep with their bedroom door open so they can listen to the telly next door or downstairs where a responsible person is watching it.. Then why not? My kids did! If someone is paid to be there then they are unlikely to parlatic... Would you advocate compulsory self closure devices in every house where there is a drunk?

I agree we don't have all the facts, but reading the info we have been given does not suggest to me that this is a 200 bed institution. I have audited providers who gave this sort of service, and I was not unhappy with the standards achieved. Residents are safer with 24 hour assistance, and with methodical supervision of checks on smoke detectors, electrics, gas systems and so on than they are without it. But we don't need to go overboard.
toe  
#14 Posted : 07 August 2015 19:24:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

I get involved with this sort of thing all the time are here are my conclusions from the post.

The person has 24 hour care in their own tenancy which is owned by a landlord. It is accepted that at this level of support that they are vulnerable (leaning disabilities) and require fire safety measures to be in place for their safety in their home. Ok... so the care provider is getting paid for their service which makes it a commercial enterprise. So a fire risk assessment requires to be in place, i.e. staff working in the premises and the duty to keep vulnerable people safe.

Now in Scotland this would be a dual responsibility between the landlord (controlling the fabric of the building) and the care provider (controlling the management of the building). This can be achieved by the duty holders getting together and conducting the FRA together or matching the two respectful independent FRA together (cooperation and coordination). So yes a FRA is required and its not dependant on any lease agreements, the regs state where a person has control of the premises they are the dutyholder.

Do door closures need fitted to the doors? Well only the competent assessor/s can come to that conclusion as fire legislation is not that prescriptive, i.e. having a door closure can create a risk if the person needs constant monitoring for example with epilepsy.

If it was me - in general dry ambient smoke seals and intumescent strips to be fitted to at least the bedroom door and kitchen door and all the doors closed at night (staff can control this) - sometimes I insist on self closure door closures and sometimes not. Self closures are no use for people in wheelchairs and other methods can be employed.

Please note: my comments relate to Scottish fire safety laws.
toe  
#15 Posted : 07 August 2015 19:31:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Steve e ashton - makes some excellent points in which I agree with, this has to be a homely environment no signage etc... and we must not go overboard with the assessment of the risks and go over the top. A sensible and pragmatic approach is needed.

Steve e ashton  
#16 Posted : 08 August 2015 00:54:40(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

Thanks toe. Appreciate the comments! I thought I was the only one advocating proportionality! And OK note the reference to Scotland, but I suspect ingerland is much the same?...
Invictus  
#17 Posted : 10 August 2015 09:57:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

quote=FireSafety101]Invictus, this one worries me on two counts.

1. You are doing fire risk assessments and don't know what tou are assessing. Don't want to knock you too much because as least you know you need to know more and are asking the question here.

2. I am concerned about the fire doors and the mention of sleeping risk.

If I were you I would not hesitate in notifying the fire and rescue service, they need to know what is going on there.

The above is my personal opinion and based entirely on the information supplied on this thread.




1 I am well qualified in fire risk assessment and I have assessed a number of different areas, prisons, mental health institutions etc.

Starting this job has thrown me as they don't really want to do anything unless it is legal no best practice or anything.
The reason I asked the question about self closers was they had them taken off and when I read the report it stated something like 'wedges are being used to hold doors open, this must cease immediately. Fire doors are an integral part of fire safety. Wedging the doors means that staff have to physically close the doors' The next statement read 'we are removing the self closers to prevent the need for staff to wedge them open' but now the doors stay open and staff in the event of a fire will have to close them manually anyway so the object of the exercise was somewhat defeated.

The difference with this house is it is a dwelling, although I read something that stated ' a house stops being a dwelling when it is converted into ' a care home, childrens home etc. We have other houses that we own and are childrens homes yet the rules are different as they insist on door closers on all doors including bedrooms. Both places have waking watch and a member of staff sleeping in, so a fire starting and getting out of control is slim. If you take away the fact that the residents in this place are paying we would still owe a duty of care to the employees.
We do not use signs 'keep door closed' etc or direction fire exit signs, because they are supposed to be a home, but we still have to have a fire drill 4 times per year now if it were just classed as a dwelling you wouldn't have to do that. So areas become clouded on what you must do and what you don't have to do.
I not to sure that self closers would be of great benefit with the exception of keeping smoke at bay as the doors have all been fitted with smoke seals, but there are certainally doors that are not constructed as fire doors.

I am quite happy with what I do and I have had no compliants form anywhere I have assessed. Sometimes it's the way companies try to protray the establishment to move the goal posts.
firesafety101  
#18 Posted : 10 August 2015 15:14:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Invictus, I apologise if I came over a little harsh with my first comment, now having read more through the thread I can see how difficult it is for you to know exactly what/how to treat the assessment.

It is always difficult to provide decent advice while not knowing the full picture.



jwk  
#19 Posted : 10 August 2015 16:50:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Invictus; the circumstances you describe are not too unusual in learning disabilities type services. There is a strong presumption that posting fire notices, having fire door closers and so on detracts from the core principles of ordinary lives. This doesn't mean they are right. I personally would happily forego the fire notices, but the door closers are a must. If they are concerned that closers will retsrict people's free movement around the building then they need either fully automatic doors (very expensive) or hold-opem types (expensive). Sleeping accommodation must have door closers, and this sounds like a workplace to me for the purposes of the RR(FS)O. At my last place we had closers in an adapted four bedroom bungalow on a suburban street; it was a registered service and ergo a workplace,

John
Steve e ashton  
#20 Posted : 10 August 2015 23:25:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Steve e ashton

Guidance from LaCors chief fire officers and IEH clearly and explicitly accepts at para 21.5 that the 'requirement' for self closers can be relaxed for these low risk properties.. Why then are some insisting they are required? It suggests the official guidance is somehow too soft?? I am happy to work within authoritative guidelines on this one...
Invictus  
#21 Posted : 11 August 2015 08:21:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

I think there is too much contradictory guidence, Part B building regs states closers, 9999 state closers and both say this is guidence you do not have to meet it in full in the way shown but must meet it a another way. The BWF, ASFP, PFPF to name few all lean towards closers. The thought is if it stays open then it's no use at all and therefore you may as well not have a door at all. I lean towards closers, but I think that people need to be educated in passive fire to understand the role of the door and the closer.

Hospitals have now changed, they have magnetic hold backs for two reasons one to save the door being damaged when hit with beds etc and two to stop them being wedged open and therefore offering no protection.

I have been to schools that final exit doors have bolts and a key lock, the school was told apparently by OFSTED that they do not have to have the recommended 'one action openers'

Local fire brigades also either giving permission or not even noticing that they are locked and bolted. When I asked for this information in writing they said it was only verbal.

I don't take that these areas are low risk, as people are asleep, they have mental illness and little understanding of fire alarms and how to get out and therefore need assistance, most with low mobility.

An office to me would be low risk.
hammer1  
#22 Posted : 11 August 2015 08:22:55(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hammer1

You might want to have a look at the adult placement on fire safety;


http://www.planningporta.../BR_ASSDOC_PTB_Adult.pdf

There are other guidance documents you can source from the web.


An Adult Placement (AP) Carer is someone who offers accommodation and/or
support in their own home to a vulnerable person. An Adult Placement Carer must
be approved by, matched with a person by, and supported by an Adult Placement
Scheme. No AP Carer provides care for more than three service users and most AP
Carers occupy ‘traditional’ dwellings.
RayRapp  
#23 Posted : 11 August 2015 08:27:09(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Joining the party a bit late...if you look at the guidance below from Fire Safety in Purpose Built Blocks of Flats, it clearly is a requirement to have self-closers fitted on flat front doors. I think it is fair to say it is strongly recommended in LACoRS.

Fire Safety in Purpose Built Blocks of Flats 29.2 The flat entrance doors are critical to the safety of the common parts in the event of a fire within a flat. The doors must be self-closing and afford an adequate degree of fire resistance. Where these doors are, under tenancy agreements, the responsibility of the freeholder, the FSO and the Housing Act may both be used to address deficiencies, but, in many cases, it will be the FSO that is more appropriate to apply.

LACoRS 21.5 In most multi-occupancy situations, fire-resisting doors should be fitted with approved self-closing devices. This may be relaxed for doors within houses or flats occupied by a single household and doors within low-risk, shared houses. Doors to rooms within larger flats in multiple occupation and in larger or higher risk shared houses may require self-closers within the context of an overall fire risk assessment. Entrance doors to flats and bedsit rooms will always require them. Where fitted they should be of a type in compliance with BS EN1154 : 1997 (Power size 3 will usually be appropriate for FD30 and FD30S fire doors)

Invictus  
#24 Posted : 11 August 2015 08:51:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Another document that states one thing but means another, 'Private dwellings that are used for adult placements should not present any greater risk than compared to single family dwelling'.

But if the bedroom/first floor is 4.5 meters above the ground then a totally enclosed staircase of 30 minutes with a FD 20 is required or an alternative escape is required. Now I am sure someone will correct me but isn't 4.5 m the height to the first floor on houses?

Thanks
Invictus  
#25 Posted : 11 August 2015 09:06:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

As we have someone awake all night, my thoughts are will a fire take hold without them knowing as they have to do 15 minute tours of the house and these are recorded electronically.
jwk  
#26 Posted : 11 August 2015 10:38:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

This doesn't sound like a 'private dwelling used for adult placements' to me. It sounds more like a residential care premises, since there are staff on site full-time.

Steve, I have to agree with Invictus, it's not low-risk. While learning disabilities is a very widely applied term, people who need full-time support are likely to be at greater risk in the event of a fire than people who don't. Given their support needs they will possibly need support in the event of fire and will need to be kept safe while they wait for that support,

John
hammer1  
#27 Posted : 11 August 2015 14:37:20(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hammer1

jwk wrote:
This doesn't sound like a 'private dwelling used for adult placements' to me. It sounds more like a residential care premises, since there are staff on site full-time.

Steve, I have to agree with Invictus, it's not low-risk. While learning disabilities is a very widely applied term, people who need full-time support are likely to be at greater risk in the event of a fire than people who don't. Given their support needs they will possibly need support in the event of fire and will need to be kept safe while they wait for that support,

John


Adult placements has become massive in last 5 years due to cuts to LA budgets etc, I know 2 care professionals that have set up adult placement within their own home so they are staff and home owners in one, however they do employ another staff member who works nights (has bed etc) sometimes.

This sounds exactly like 'private dwelling used for adult placements' to me, the worrying thing is they seem to fall outside the radar of inspecting fire officers, mainly I would of thought due to not knowing where they are?.

The link I provided is the official line in these situations, and indeed these premises that I know have had FRA, upgraded certain things to (fire alarm system, installing FD30S etc).

I must state that not in all cases they may not all be disable as this includes vulnerable persons also. If someone can go up the stairs then they can go down the stairs, plus PEEPS would cover in issues.
hammer1  
#28 Posted : 11 August 2015 14:41:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
hammer1

Invictus wrote:
Another document that states one thing but means another, 'Private dwellings that are used for adult placements should not present any greater risk than compared to single family dwelling'.

But if the bedroom/first floor is 4.5 meters above the ground then a totally enclosed staircase of 30 minutes with a FD 20 is required or an alternative escape is required. Now I am sure someone will correct me but isn't 4.5 m the height to the first floor on houses?

Thanks


Its the official guidance and to be far they are right?. I know a couple with 2 kids with disabilities, they have not upgraded their home to a L1 BS5839 systems or installed FD30S everywhere and I think I am just as likely to have a fire in my home as they are, its down to the FRA and what they think is needed.
toe  
#29 Posted : 11 August 2015 20:36:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Adult placement in a family's home is NOT the same as a social care provider providing 24 hour care in a person own tenancy. Adult placement's do not have the same support needs than that a person needing 24 hour care i.e. high support needs.

Having said that, fire safety is important in all homes either private dwellings or care services.
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