Any takers for this particular topic?

Well, I’ve been out of the office all day.
Anyway, IMHO they should not be doing this work unless competent.
As far as a half-way house goes, they can’t be half way competent, they either are or, they are not.

What circuits and doing what?
Domestic, commercial, industrial, machinery, controls?
They all require different competencies.
What are they doing to the circuits?
Like for like replacement of accessories?
Are they designing and implementing modifications to circuits?
How do they verify that their work complies with BS7671 after they complete, i.e. inspection & testing.
If they can’t prove that the circuit is compliant with BS7671, how can you verify that the work is compliant with EAWR?

As far as the C&G 4141 goes it covers domestic only, so if you are looking at domestic circuits then possibly, however, I’m not sure I would be happy with zero to competent in 5 days in a classroom.
Reading the description for this course at the only place I could find it, I would doubt that it turns out someone who is competent to design circuit modifications, or inspect & test to prove circuits are safe to re-energise after work and thus compliant with EAWR.

Also the C&G 2382 (17th Ed.) is NOT a basis for electrical competence.
It teaches you where to find answers to questions in a book, it does not teach any safety what so ever, it does not teach any practical what so ever, it is not designed to.
It is designed to teach electrically competent persons who are already qualified or extremely experienced, the changes in the Wiring Regulations, i.e. to explain what the current regulations require, as opposed to perhaps when they qualified under the 16th, 15th 14th etc.
17th Ed. Qualification does NOT equal an electrician, and does not equal electrically competent.
It also ONLY applies to fixed wiring and is irrelevant when it comes to machinery, and control systems, as they are excluded from BS7671.

There is a saying in the “trade” about people who do such courses, that I should not really repeat, but it is common, and has been used in a Parliamentary Select Committee Meeting, 5DW, or 5WW, as in 5 Day or Week Wonder.
Those who think that they are a competent electrician after 5 days or weeks even, in a classroom.
They are not.

Under the electricity at work regs 1989 you don't have to be a sparky to work with electricity; or have the wiring regs training for that matter. As others have said, you have to be COMPETENT. So this is your call. Absolutely critical is what they are doing. Are they changing fuses or fault finding, or what? You need to get competent advice and then decide. The minimum, in my experience, would be some sort of formal training with some sort of competency check. Hope this helps. And BTW, ask your insurers what they think.

I have a similar problem with AC engineers working on electrical wiring for fault finding and repairs, but have no formal electrical training.

Not sure how to proceed with this as it could impact on a revenue stream in the business if we require an electrician every time someone works on wiring.

Your advice would be appreciated.

The sooner the word "Engineer" is controlled by law (as it is in Germany) the better!

Maybe we ought to add electrician too?

I appeal to this profession to show respect for Chartered Engineers by not using the word engineer willy nilly.

I would be interested to know people's thoughts on what qualifications a person doing an electrical rewire of a tenanted house should hold?

Sub-contracting companies seem to employ people that have no formal qualifications at all to do this type of work. The person doing the testing seems to be the guy with all the necessary tickets. I have asked the question and contractors seem happy because the electrical system is 'dead' while being installed/upgraded and is then checked by the qualified person to make sure the system complies with Regs and is safe.

The engineers are all trained in their specific field, i.e. air conditioning repair, fire alarm installation, and others.

But are not qualified electricians as they would not be involved in installation or testing of new fixed wiring installations.

The works would either be reactive repair works or connecting to a power supply provided by an qualified electrician.

If we show no respect for other professions, how can we expect them to respect ours!

My guess is they are at best technicians
I doubt they have a degree and embarked on getting a chartership

This country is in a mess
Mainly because we don't have enough "real" engineers.
People do not enter the engineering profession because the public perception is so appalling.

The bloke who fixes my car IS NOT AN ENGINEER
The bloke who fixes my boiler IS NOT AN ENGINEER
The bloke who fixes the photocopier IS NOT AN ENGINEER

My colleagues with a degree (many also PhD) and chartered are ENGINEERs
As is anyone in Germany who describes themselves as such.

You may think this is not relevant to us, but I am a H&S professional ( I worked long and hard and my family made sacrifices for me to be able to say that!) and I don't want confusing with someone who bungs safety signs on the wall of his office.

So ..........I ask for respect in the use of the word engineer............please.

I agree Walker, however, remember there are also Incorporated Engineers as well as Chartered Engineers! ;)

Steve, I'll put something more together for you later.

Ok, so you have air conditioning installers and repairers who are doing electrical work.
This is not installations work under BS7671 with regard to the fixed wiring installation in the building?
Or is it, would your air conditioning guys make changes to a unit, that would have an impact on the incoming supply?
Would they put in a larger unit, then just swap out the upstream fuses or breaker?
Why do I ask this, because I’ve been behind air-con guys who have done just this, and then ended up overloading the supply circuit, so, whilst their employer claimed they were competent, they weren’t.
If they are not working on the fixed wiring covered by BS7671, then you are saying that they are working on the control systems and wiring within the air-con units themselves.
This is still covered by EAWR.
Thus to do the work they must still be competent.
Now, there are definitions of competent, so I’m not going to repeat them, however, training does form part of competence.
In the event of an issue you would need to be able to prove competence would you not?
So, could you prove that your air-con guys are competent to work on the electrical systems?
Next, a comment on said electrical systems.
BS7671 (the UK implementation of EN 60364) applies to the fixed installation.
Now, it does not apply to machinery, by its own definitions BS7671 does not cover any machinery electrical systems that are part of machinery covered by the Machinery Directive.
These systems are covered by EN 60204-1 (BS EN in the UK).
Now, there are differences between the two standards EN 60204 & EN 60364 that are not taught on general electrical courses in most training establishments because they teach around BS7671, and there is nothing wrong with that.
So, now you have a quandary, you really need to be able to prove your air-con guys are competent to undertake minor repairs, such as replacement of components, like for like, and undertake fault finding safely under EAWR, and BS7671 & EN 60204.
Why both standards, well, the equipment will almost certainly come under the machinery directive, if not then the LVD, and again EN 60204 is a Harmonised standard under both the MD & the LVD.
Air-con units for household and similar also have their own C-type standard EN 60335-2-40 which is harmonised under the machinery directive, thus one must look also back to the A & B-type MD standards.
Now I’m not suggesting that your air-con installers & repairers must have intimate knowledge of these standards, however, the equipment will be CE marked thus, you have a duty to ensure that the equipment remains safe as the OEM designed it.
Thus, repairs must be undertaken with at least one eye on the design standards.
Otherwise you will be modifying the equipment and becoming the manufacturer, with all of the responsibilities & liabilities thereof.
Also, air-con units are often distributed around the building, thus the interconnecting wiring will then be covered by BS7671, thus your air-con installers whilst not providing supplies must be competent to install and connect the wiring systems between the discrete sub-assemblies in accordance with BS7671, or example fire-resistant cable supports in escape routes, etc.
Now how would they know that there is now a requirement in BS7671, that applies to any wiring that they install between discrete units which now requires fire-resistant fixings when this wiring is within an escape route in a building.

By the way, BS7671 applies to almost everything both fire alarm & security installers and repairers do, like it or not, it is only subservient to BS 5839, so how can you say that your fire-alarm installers don’t need electrical training?
As far as EN 50131 goes, as far as installation, it bows out to local and national electrical safety standards, so we are back to BS7671 & EN 60364.
They must be competent to undertake their works, thus, they must be competent and have a working knowledge of BS 5839 & BS 7671 for alarms
After all fire alarm works is, electrical work, the same as security systems works.
Remember, all of this is covered by EAWR, and the other relevant regulations which are statute law.

Oh, and one last thing, a single qualification in BS7671 such as the C&G 2382 (17th Ed.) does not make a person a qualified and competent electrician, this course is designed to take a competent practicing electrician, and make them familiar with the layout of, and any updates to BS7671, that is primarily, the book. It does not teach any, practical skills, it teaches you how to find your way around the BS7671, “the book”, it will make the person more familiar with the requirements for electrical installations, by virtue of them reading the regulations in finding their way around, the book, but it does not make a competent electrician.

In summary then, your fire alarm installers and repairers must be qualified in BS7671 as they must have a good working knowledge of it’s requirements because it applies to almost all of the work they do.
It also by the way applies to “Sky” installers, telecoms installers, security installers, network & data guys also.
In the same way that EAWR applies to everything electrical in the work place, BS7671 applies to everything with regard to the wiring within building infrastructures, (excluding HV, i.e. >1kV), it applies to control systems for BMS, the BMS systems themselves, telecoms wiring, data wiring, electrical power wiring, obviously, interconnections between systems such as discrete air-con units etc. etc. etc.

So, no one should be undertaking modifications to these wiring systems unless they are competent to do so, therefore they must have a good working knowledge of the design & installation requirements for the work that they are doing.

As far as low voltage power goes i.e. 230V circuits, how can your people prove that these circuits are safe and compliant with EAWR, to re-energise after work if they do not have a sufficient understanding or competence to check this safety, in general the safety tests are in EN 60364, EN 60204 & BS7671.