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jon joe  
#1 Posted : 01 December 2015 13:26:22(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jon joe

On a building Site, If a Contractor is working along with on-site employee, and is carrying out a Work Activity, but gets injured completing the task, in a way the Contractor Method Statement does not mention...Who's held responsible, the Contractor or person who owns the Site
Kate  
#2 Posted : 01 December 2015 13:38:10(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Kate

It depends on the circumstances.
And it's not necessarily either/or - it might be both.
SP900308  
#3 Posted : 01 December 2015 14:10:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SP900308

Could be Principal Contractor (overall control of site), contractor (risk assessment not S&S), employee (frolic of his/her own) and/or client (Employer of IP?).

As per Kate's response.... depends!
firesafety101  
#4 Posted : 01 December 2015 14:15:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Why must there be someone to BLAME ?

Can't you just do a thorough investigation and come up with a reason for the accident and a few ways to ensure there is no recurrence ?

imponderabilius  
#5 Posted : 01 December 2015 14:35:08(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
imponderabilius

Site owner or principal contractor, prior to allowing subcontractors on site, should receive and accept their risk assessment/method statement.
Anyway, an investigation should be carried out in case of an accident and only then can it be determined whose responsible for what. As Kate wrote, it might be both.
SP900308  
#6 Posted : 01 December 2015 14:43:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SP900308

Accidents are preventable, therefore someone had the ability to prevent!
JohnW  
#7 Posted : 01 December 2015 14:55:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

FireSafety101 wrote:
Why must there be someone to BLAME ?
Can't you just do a thorough investigation and come up with a reason for the accident and a few ways to ensure there is no recurrence ?


OK, instead of 'who is to blame?' maybe jonjoe could have said

who is responsible for implementing corrective actions that will prevent a recurrence of this accident?
jon joe  
#8 Posted : 01 December 2015 16:13:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jon joe

FireSafety101 wrote:
Why must there be someone to BLAME ?

Can't you just do a thorough investigation and come up with a reason for the accident and a few ways to ensure there is no recurrence ?



Already carried out an investigation, and began to implement corrective actions....But, was asked by someone in management, if we could be held responsible (in terms of claims)...My experience of claims is zero...investigation flagged up fault on both sides...Seen this in a previous job, the minute someone knows the person who had the accident, isn't dead, they then start to think how much it will cost in claims
jodieclark1510  
#9 Posted : 01 December 2015 16:22:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jodieclark1510

You are looking at everyone having a portion of the responsibility. If they had all been doing what they were meant to be doing, either following the rules/ method statement etc. or ensuring they were followed then perhaps it may not have happened. The system fell down in more than one direction.
JohnW  
#10 Posted : 01 December 2015 16:33:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

jon joe wrote:
On a building Site, If a Contractor is working along with on-site employee, and is carrying out a Work Activity, but gets injured completing the task, in a way the Contractor Method Statement does not mention...Who's held responsible, the Contractor or person who owns the Site


jon joe, was the accident 'foreseeable' i.e. was there an obvious risk, and was that risk not identified in the i) Contractor RAMS or ii) the site manager/PC RAMS?
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 01 December 2015 17:13:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

jon

In safety we don't use the term 'blame' it is too emotive and implies prejudice. Instead we do use the terms 'responsible' or even 'fault' or 'failure', normally following an investigation of course.
RayRapp  
#12 Posted : 01 December 2015 17:19:26(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

BTW, I don't subscribe to the notion all accidents are preventable. Most accidents are preventable. All accidents would only be preventable if you had hindsight plus the powers of Superman!
firesafety101  
#13 Posted : 01 December 2015 18:09:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

1. An accident does not have to result in injury or damage, so why are these types not investigated as frequently as those that result in injury or harm ?

2. "Blame" is usually placed on the Employer, not the employee. In this instance both are "workers" or "operatives" or "employees" and if HSE were to investigate I suspect they will start with the site of the accident, injured person, control measures in place, control measures that could have been on place etc. etc.
SP900308  
#14 Posted : 01 December 2015 20:04:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SP900308

Ray, yes, agreed, 'most' accidents are preventable. I rushed my response!
Also, John, yes, foreseeability is the test.

I'd therefore suggest, most accidents are foreseeable, preventable and failure, is a failure of responsibility. Who had responsibility is the question.

Something often only determined in court, should it get that far through the process!
RayRapp  
#15 Posted : 02 December 2015 08:19:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

FireSafety101 wrote:
1. An accident does not have to result in injury or damage, so why are these types not investigated as frequently as those that result in injury or harm ?

2. "Blame" is usually placed on the Employer, not the employee. In this instance both are "workers" or "operatives" or "employees" and if HSE were to investigate I suspect they will start with the site of the accident, injured person, control measures in place, control measures that could have been on place etc. etc.


1. Near misses or those incidents that do not result in an actual injury or loss are not given the gravitas they deserve because as rule humans only focus on the outcome of an incident and not its potential. The same could also be said for incidents where there is a significant outcome e.g. RIDDOR. Often too much attention is paid to the events which lead up to the injury when it is often a simple and sometimes unpreventable cause, such as a slip, trip and fall.

2. The regulator normally focuses on the employer because the duty to prevent harm lies with the employer. In cases where the IP may have breached legislation himself, the fact that he has been injured is often enough 'punishment' and of course no one deliberately sets out to injure themselves. Finally, there should be company procedures in place to take action against those who willfully breach company policies and/or legisation, which the regulators often prefer duty holders to enforce. As a last resort s7 HSWA can be used against individual employees in the most extreme circumstances.
jon joe  
#16 Posted : 02 December 2015 09:47:06(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
jon joe

FireSafety101 wrote:
1. An accident does not have to result in injury or damage, so why are these types not investigated as frequently as those that result in injury or harm ?

2. "Blame" is usually placed on the Employer, not the employee. In this instance both are "workers" or "operatives" or "employees" and if HSE were to investigate I suspect they will start with the site of the accident, injured person, control measures in place, control measures that could have been on place etc. etc.


1. Not sure what your getting at...Anyway, the Contractor was fixing something (wont go into detail), and he climbed into a small enclosure, which wasn't designed for a person to do so, and was injured...Foreseeability, as already mentioned, is something which I;ve failed to do, as when I asked the Maintenace team previously, about any abnormal practices, this wasn't mentioned, therefore it wasn't investigated, as I didn't see it as an issue

2. After investigation, Contractors were unsupervised, and after checking the Method Statements for this work, it doesn't mention doing it, in the way they did
RayRapp  
#17 Posted : 02 December 2015 12:44:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Very few Method Statements are actually followed verbatim. That's why good supervision of tasks is so important. In some cases the working environment can change daily - documentation often does not keep pace with these changes. Empowering people to fully appreciate the risks through proper training and supervison is worth more than a few pieces of paper.
sadlass  
#18 Posted : 03 December 2015 13:27:40(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
sadlass

Vulnerability to a civil claim is dependent on there actually being a claim - which has to be initiated by the person suffering injury or loss, and could be directed to any or many parties.

Then the claim can be contested by whoever is claimed against - but this is in the hands of company insurers, and small claims are often settled early as a cost measure.
As the burden of proof in civil matters is lower than criminal (regulatory) cases, even if gets to court the outcomes can seem perverse.

The amount of excitement generated at management level by civil claims is often disproportional. One should be grateful there has been no enforcement action, and focus more on any learning points.

I was taught years ago not to get over-excited by civil claims (reinforced by a helpful HSE inspector too) and certainly don't over-react to any civil court 'recommendations'. Give them due consideration, but they are not always helpful.

Trying to second-guess civil claims is not really a H&S practitioner job, but I guess management don't see the difference, so having a bit of an understanding of the process is useful.

Safety management for the compliance with legal standards and avoidance of events is the best line of defence against any action including civil claims, but if the worst happens - well that is what the civil and insurance systems are there for.
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