Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
johnmurray  
#1 Posted : 02 December 2015 11:21:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Mgadd78  
#2 Posted : 02 December 2015 11:45:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mgadd78

How would a company like a crane company even get to the point of worn brakes . Am I missing something here? They must need a operators license to even be on the road .So how do they miss tests on there wagons/cranes . They must carry some sort of Accreditation so to me they can not even be audited in the correct way because some one must be picking that up that their cranes are missing important services. Looking forward to the outcome! The punishment will be no were near the price of a hard working life the employee had. Very Sad.
walker  
#3 Posted : 02 December 2015 12:23:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

Well you have to admire their brass neck, look on their website http://www.baldwinscrane.../management-courses.html
RayRapp  
#4 Posted : 02 December 2015 12:37:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I'm not sure I would use the term 'admire' but brassneck certainly. To be honest you could go on many organisations' intranet sites and find similar claims - talk is cheap.
walker  
#5 Posted : 02 December 2015 12:52:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

Yes admire isn't the right word is it .......I meant in ironically
ptaylor14  
#6 Posted : 02 December 2015 13:45:49(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
ptaylor14

RayRapp wrote:
I'm not sure I would use the term 'admire' but brassneck certainly. To be honest you could go on many organisations' intranet sites and find similar claims - talk is cheap.
Could`nt agree more, is life as cheap as talk ????
A Kurdziel  
#7 Posted : 02 December 2015 14:00:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

Interestingly this has not been widely reported for example by the Daily Mail, who only seem to be interested in stories knocking 'elf and safety' rather than showing the public what can happen if it is not correctly applied. Strange and sad world!
johnmurray  
#8 Posted : 02 December 2015 14:21:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

"During the HSE investigation following the accident it emerged that a number of the crane’s engine braking systems were disconnected, broken or not fully working. Seven of its 16 wheel brakes were not functional and the other nine were worn or damaged"
johnmurray  
#9 Posted : 26 December 2015 16:42:25(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

toe  
#10 Posted : 26 December 2015 21:16:55(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Excuse my ignorance, but does anyone know why was this a HSE case? Surly this is a police and DVSA matter and prosecution should be through the RTA and associated legislation and not HSE legislation, i.e. faulty brakes on a vehicle, or vehicle inspections not carried out at prescribed legal intervals. On another note, why did this case also go through 'corporate' manslaughter legislation when other types of manslaughter may be better applied to the case?
RayRapp  
#11 Posted : 26 December 2015 21:52:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Toe From what I can gather it was a joint investigation between the Police, HSE and CPS, the latter would normally prosecute in a CM offence. I suspect because of the gravity of the offences it was decided to go for Corporate Manslaughter where the sanctions are normally higher for such an offence. There may not have been enough evidence on any one individual to support an indictment for gross negligent manslaughter. It was not just a case of faulty brakes on the said vehicle but other vehicles in the fleet. There were also other safety failings within the organisation which no doubt contributed to the decision to go for CM. There is still an opportunity I believe for the authorities to pursue individuals within the organisation, for example, s37 HSWA if they so choose.
toe  
#12 Posted : 27 December 2015 01:24:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Sorry Ray, Unless I am missing something, I'm still not getting why HSE would be involved in road transport affairs. It appears that there were two H&S charges alongside the CM conviction, along the lines of the vehicles defective brakes. The condition of any road vehicle (especially one involved in a fatality) is normally a police and/or DVSA matter and not the HSE. Because there has already been HSE convictions I am not sure that s37 HSWA can be pursued.
johnmurray  
#13 Posted : 27 December 2015 09:08:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Details of the charges: Baldwins Crane Hire Limited on the 15th day of August 2011 being an organisation, namely a corporation, because of the way in which the organisation's activities were managed or organised, caused the death of a person, namely Lindsay Easton, contrary to ##section 1## of the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 Baldwins Crane Hire Limited, between the 1st day of January 2010 and the 16th day of August 2011, being an employer within the meaning of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974, failed to discharge the duty imposed on it under ##Section 2## of the Act by failing to ensure so far as reasonably practicable, the health, safety and welfare at work of its employees including Lindsay Easton. Contrary to section 33(1)(a) of that Act. Baldwins Crane Hire Limited, between the 1st day of January 2010 and the 16th day of August 2011, being an employer within the meaning of the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974, failed to discharge the duty imposed on it under ##Section 3## of the Act, by failing to conduct its undertaking in such a way as to ensure, so far as reasonably practicable, that persons not in its employment who may be affected thereby were not thereby exposed to risks to their health and safety. Contrary to section 33(1)(a) of that Act. Full house. The civil litigation part proceeds. The crane was not on a public highway when the accident occurred.
RayRapp  
#14 Posted : 27 December 2015 22:08:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Toe wrote:
Sorry Ray, Unless I am missing something, I'm still not getting why HSE would be involved in road transport affairs. It appears that there were two H&S charges alongside the CM conviction, along the lines of the vehicles defective brakes. The condition of any road vehicle (especially one involved in a fatality) is normally a police and/or DVSA matter and not the HSE. Because there has already been HSE convictions I am not sure that s37 HSWA can be pursued.
I don't know for sure only having read the summary of the offence, but it could be the HSE provided expert analysis of the faulty braking system on the vehicle. It was my understanding the accident occurred on the public highway (slip road) but the actual point of the accident could have been just off the public highway, assuming the post below is correct. However the vehicle must have been on the highway at some point prior to the accident and in an unfit condition. The workplace fatality protocol does include both the police and HSE. I presume because of the nature of the failings it was deemed a workplace fatality as opposed to a RTA. There is often overlapping legislation where either could apply. I am not familiar with the RTA, but I doubt if there is an equivalent offence to CM by which to prosecute the organisation for such a serious offence. It is not unusual for H&S offences to run alongside a CM indictment. If they don't find you guilty of CM, then there is a good chance the other offences will apply. With regards to s37 there is no need for a successful conviction for h&s offences against the organisation before a s37 charge against individual officers can take place, but as a rule it is the case. Indeed, I would be surprised if s37 charges are not forthcoming.
toe  
#15 Posted : 28 December 2015 00:14:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

It appears that the vehicle was on a public highway when the brakes failed. Your right, workplace fatality protocol do include Police and the HSE involvement. However, this is a fatality on the public highway. There is no workplace involved in the incident. As I see it, CM has absolutely nothing to do with HSE legislation it is a separate Act of Parliament enforced by the police and processed by the CPS (in England and Wales). The HSE are not expert in vehicles, the Police and DVSA are. I am aware of the details of the charge, I just don't understand them. Can someone explain the rational as to why there was HSE involvement and prosecution in this case when it ought to have been a full police matter? This case could have wider implications if the HSE are able to be involved and succeed in prosecutions of the results of a RTA.
toe  
#16 Posted : 28 December 2015 00:29:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

RayRapp wrote:
If they don't find you guilty of CM, then there is a good chance the other offences will apply. With regards to s37 there is no need for a successful conviction for h&s offences against the organisation before a s37 charge against individual officers can take place, but as a rule it is the case. Indeed, I would be surprised if s37 charges are not forthcoming.
I believe the opposite is the case. If you are found not guilty of CM your unlikely to be charged with a section 37 offence, there is a lesser burden of proof for CM, i.e. no controlling mind (individual involvement) to prove. If a CM conviction is successful then the HSE may be successful in a section 37 offence if they can prove consent or connivance of an individual relating to the CM offence. Because this organisation has been successfully convicted under H&S law it is unlikely they would be convicted again for the same offence (i.e section 37).
RayRapp  
#17 Posted : 28 December 2015 10:43:53(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

With respect, I think you are getting confused with the different doctrines. CM is a stand alone offence, however the indictment could also include other h&s offences e.g. s2/3 HSWA. CM is a codified Act which has nothing to do with the 'controlling mind' doctrine (mens rea). The main test under section 1 is an organisation is guilty of an offence if in the way its activities are managed or organised causes a death and amounts to a gross breach of a relevant duty of care to the deceased. A substantial part of the breach must have been in the way activities were managed by senior management. Again, a section 37 offence is a separate offence and is used against individual officers of the organisation, where it can be proved the organisation failed to comply with statutory provisions. I believe this offence can be invoked regardless of any other offences and convictions.
toe  
#18 Posted : 28 December 2015 12:52:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Thanks for your response. It appears that the vehicle was on an access road and not a public highway (apologies for my incorrect previous post).
johnmurray  
#19 Posted : 28 December 2015 16:51:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
johnmurray

Pity there was insufficient evidence for an individual manslaughter offence. The civil award should be quite high as well (even higher than their 700K + 200K fine/costs) Cheapskates. A good life lost to skinflints.
Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.