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damian2701  
#1 Posted : 12 February 2016 13:36:44(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
damian2701

I have a query regarding a single contractor project, as I understand - under the CDM regs the Client does not have to appoint a PD under a single contractor project, however, under a roofing project I am currently involved in, the roofing contractor will be engaging the services of a scaffold sub-contractor who will be directly employed by the roofing contractor and not the client. Would the above arrangements merit the Prerequisite of a single contractor project or a project involving more than one contractor where the latter would then invoke the appointment of a Principal Designer? Any advice would be greatly appreciated

Regards,

Damian
WatsonD  
#2 Posted : 12 February 2016 14:41:22(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

I think in this case you are looking at employing a principal contractor rather than a principal designer.

The principal designer comes into play where there is a pre-construction phase where the project will need planning/design input from Engineers, architects, etc.

Assuming you are just replacing a roof like-for-like then the roofing company would simply become the principal contractor.

They would then need to oversee the project and Health & Safety including producing the Construction phase plan and for a small project like that CITB have an app they could use which would take them about 5 minutes:

http://www.citb.co.uk/he...ulations/cdm-wizard-app/
Ron Hunter  
#3 Posted : 12 February 2016 15:37:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

There is more than one contractor. The Client is obliged (Regulation 5) to appoint PD and PC
appointment.

The Client can appoint himself as PD

The PD on a simple Project can be a QS or specifier.

both duties can default to the Client should he not make them.

The PC can be appointed as the PD.

Regulation 5 and CDM2015 generally affords significant flexibility.

Nothing to get hung up about, but appointments should be made in writing.
achrn  
#4 Posted : 12 February 2016 15:53:00(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
achrn

Damian2701 wrote:
the roofing contractor will be engaging the services of a scaffold sub-contractor


So it's not a single contractor project.

You need a PC and PD (or have the client take on all the duties)

The 'single contractor' condition in the regs is about if there is more than one contractor working on the project, not about the number of direct appointments made by the client.

I suppose you might try and generate a loophole if you bought the scaffold (rather than rented it) and appointed a scaffolder to erect it, then terminated that appointment before the roofer started on site, and then terminated the roofer's appointment before the scaffolder is appointed to come and clear the scaffold. I wouldn't want to try that as a defence in court, however.
realist  
#5 Posted : 17 February 2016 14:16:01(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
realist

This is where the new regulations fall down. If an electrical contractor takes on a job but has to then have self employed electricians then by the regulations you would need a PD.


RayRapp  
#6 Posted : 17 February 2016 17:55:39(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

realist wrote:
This is where the new regulations fall down. If an electrical contractor takes on a job but has to then have self employed electricians then by the regulations you would need a PD.




Never really considered this scenario. If a client engaged an electrical company how would you know whether those employed on the project are self-employed or employees? I don't think you would. In which case a client would treat it as a single contractor project.
WatsonD  
#7 Posted : 18 February 2016 08:06:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

Up to about 20 years ago pretty much everyone in construction was self-employed. Lucky we didn't have these regs then!
SP900308  
#8 Posted : 18 February 2016 16:14:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
SP900308



If a client engaged an electrical company how would you know whether those employed on the project are self-employed or employees?


Ask for Employers Liability and Public Liability Insurance(s) that cover all workers, and scrutinise them!
RayRapp  
#9 Posted : 19 February 2016 08:25:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

SP900308 wrote:


If a client engaged an electrical company how would you know whether those employed on the project are self-employed or employees?


Ask for Employers Liability and Public Liability Insurance(s) that cover all workers, and scrutinise them!


Is this really going to happen?
damian2701  
#10 Posted : 19 February 2016 09:48:53(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
damian2701

Thanks for all your comments.

As a result of the above replies, I have approached the client and insist they appoint a PD.

Client reply "Can we request the PC to pick up the Principal Designer role as they have influenced the design by putting together the roof specification"

PC reply "We cannot pick up the PD role as we do not have the correct level of Skills, Knowledge and Experience to be appointed PD"

Client response "Can you as Project Managers pick up the role of PD?"

Our response "Firstly we are not in a position to influence the design and secondly we don't have design insurance"

Client response "So who will be PD?"

Our response "you by default"

Client response "we don't want to be PD"

Our response "We can assist with you as PD as CDM advisor's subject to an additional fee"

Client begrudgingly accepted our additional fee offer.

Bit of a long drawn out conclusion to a relatively small project wouldn't you agree!!!!!
paulw71  
#11 Posted : 19 February 2016 10:01:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paulw71

Not really. You should see my wife picking new tiles.
RayRapp  
#12 Posted : 19 February 2016 10:12:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Damian2701 wrote:
Thanks for all your comments.

As a result of the above replies, I have approached the client and insist they appoint a PD.

Client reply "Can we request the PC to pick up the Principal Designer role as they have influenced the design by putting together the roof specification"

PC reply "We cannot pick up the PD role as we do not have the correct level of Skills, Knowledge and Experience to be appointed PD"

Client response "Can you as Project Managers pick up the role of PD?"

Our response "Firstly we are not in a position to influence the design and secondly we don't have design insurance"

Client response "So who will be PD?"

Our response "you by default"

Client response "we don't want to be PD"

Our response "We can assist with you as PD as CDM advisor's subject to an additional fee"

Client begrudgingly accepted our additional fee offer.

Bit of a long drawn out conclusion to a relatively small project wouldn't you agree!!!!!


Consder yourself fortunate because if I was representing the client I would have insisted if you accept the project you would be both PC and PD. The role of PD is not onerous for small projects, indeed there is no more work than the PC would have done pre 2015 regs.
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