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chelliam  
#1 Posted : 06 April 2016 15:39:47(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
chelliam

I am the H&S Manager, for a large Housing Association. We have been managing a number of care homes, which are about to be taken over by other providers and staff TUPE'd across. All the necessary contractor competence was carried out, so we know that the providers demonstrate competence The residents will remain our tenants. The question is, where there are staff operating in the common parts, employed by a different provider/employer, do they then take on the duties of daily/weekly fire checks and annual fire risk assessments. My head says, as the controlling mind in the building, those duties would be theirs.
jwk  
#2 Posted : 06 April 2016 16:19:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

Hi chelliam, I'm not clear how this works from your description. Who actually owns the building? From the info you have provided your employer has sold the building to a third party, who will provide the care, but you'll continue to take the rent? How can people be your tenants if you don't own the building? Surely you are more like a rental agency here? Collecting rent on somebody else's behalf? I've come across situations where housing providers contract in care staff, and that's pretty straightforward; the landlord does the FM safety stuff and the staff provider does the SSOW stuff. But I've never come across a situation like the one you describe, Confused.... John
chelliam  
#3 Posted : 06 April 2016 16:43:17(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
chelliam

So, sorry for the confusion, in fairness, you're not the only one! The building remains ours, the tenants pay rent to us for their demise and the new provider occupies the remaining parts of the building, also as a tenant, to carry out the care component. We have pulled out of the care element completely. we have been carrying out the required H&S and Fire assessments but we will no longer have any staff in the common parts and control of them will rest with the new provider. Hence my thoughts that those assessments will become their responsibility. Still confused? me too?
RayRapp  
#4 Posted : 07 April 2016 08:25:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I suggest these types of matters need to be discussed and agreed in advance. Just like the repairs and maintenance, completing a FRA, remedials, etc need to be articulated in either a head lease or contract document. All too often changes take place with little thought who is responsible for what. A joint discussion with housing, resident services, et al, should clarify these points. Referring to legislation is often not the answer because the RRFSO is not explicit who is the 'responsible person' as it all depends on the circumstances. That said, HASWA and Housing Act will apply under certain proscribed conditions.
jwk  
#5 Posted : 07 April 2016 12:52:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

OK, now that's fairly clear. Agree with Ray that there needs to be formal co-operation here (Reg. 11 MHSWR), and what it's likely to look like is that your employer will be responsible for the hardware/premises/fm issues, the other will do the SSOWs, training etc. So your lot will ensure that e.g. for fire, there are means of raising the alarm, maintained means of escape and so on, while the staff provider should organise the drills, do the PEEPs etc etc. Most of the documentation should be maintained by the employer on site (the other party). As long as everything is covered and everybody's clear you'll be OK, John
hopeful  
#6 Posted : 07 April 2016 13:01:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hopeful

We operate like this and also as the care provider only in some cases. Where we own the building and residents are our tenants we complete FRAs for the fabric but expect the people who run and manage the property to complete the daily inspections and checks, complete management actions, risk assessments etc. We complete the statutory inspections of plant and equipment we provide and maintain. Hope this helps
Invictus  
#7 Posted : 07 April 2016 13:36:34(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

Seems to be a few of us in similar professions, who could assist each other and share best practice. Might be worth setting our own little sub group. That's not to say we won't post on here because I think there's a lot of good stuff on here but as we all work in the same backgrounds might be beneficial. If your interested drop me a line
chelliam  
#8 Posted : 07 April 2016 15:41:13(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
chelliam

Thanks all for the replies. Consensus appears to say it mostly comes down to what the contract and SLA says. I like the idea of the sub group, lots of things come up and it's good to have shared ideas
bob youel  
#9 Posted : 10 April 2016 08:33:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
bob youel

in the areas that U control e.g. common areas U are responsible and in the areas that others control they are responsible
toe  
#10 Posted : 10 April 2016 16:12:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

This needs to be detailed and arranged with the contract between the two parties and each understanding their legal responsibilities ensuring cooperation, and co-ordination between the two duty holders. As previously posted, in general the HA would be responsible for the fabric of the building and the fixed equipment within, sprinklers, fire detection system, signage, fire doors, compartment's etc. The care provider would generally be responsible for safe evacuation, fire warden training, fire prevention, weekly alarm checks, monthly emergency lighting check, etc. Who supplies/maintains the fire fighting equipment would form part of the contract but often it is the care provider, as these are not fixed parts of the building. Note: although the care provider is not responsible for the building, they are responsible for notifying the HA of any defects that need to be addressed, for example a fire door not fully closing, or emergency lights not operating. Having noted the above, one FRA should be done in conjunction with the two parties involved or two FRA can be conducted (one for the building completed by the HA and the other done for the management of fire safety completed by the care provider) and the two assessments form the FRA for the property. Not sure about England and Wales but this is what we do here in Scotland in these situations, which is common. On another note, when drawing up the contract don't forget to include legionella responsibilities.
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