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chris42  
#1 Posted : 07 April 2016 13:45:50(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

I have previously suggested that area managers have H&S training and suggested that ISOH managing safely would be appropriate. MD commented why do they need training, that is why I employ you. I pointed out they are making decisions daily that have H&S consequences and I cannot be everywhere, but it fell on deaf ears and went nowhere. Would providing my own training covering the areas I did, when I went on the 4 day course many many years ago (obviously updated to today’s legislation). I’m happy to put together the training, but will it be worth anything. Obviously only any good in-house they cannot particularly take it with them (a cert that is, hopefully the knowledge will remain with them), and we would be able to show what was covered in the training. But would it hold any weight whatsoever with the HSE or even a court. I have to be honest, I have not been enthused by various discussions over the current format of the IOSH course to keep pushing for that, but there are no real alternatives. Is something better than nothing. Chris
Mr.Flibble2.0  
#2 Posted : 07 April 2016 14:17:03(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr.Flibble2.0

Hi Chris As long as you feel confident in giving the training (its not for everyone) there is nothing that says it has to be a certified course delivered by a certified trainer. You can't deliver the IOSH course but you can create your own which can be tailor made to reinforce your companies polices and procedures in relation to the management regs etc. which might be more useful. I've done this myself before.
Andrew W Walker  
#3 Posted : 07 April 2016 14:32:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

Hi Chris. I don't think there would be any issues doing it yourself. If someone is competent at compiling the training material and delivering it, and its company specific, then I think its more beneficial than an off the shelf solution. Good luck. Andy
James Robinson  
#4 Posted : 07 April 2016 14:36:37(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
James Robinson

Chris, I would have thought a bespoke course devised by yourself, combining your knowledge with what happens within the business far exceeds a generic off the shelf course. If you just spend a few extra minutes making supporting material; learning outcomes, agenda, maybe a short test at the end, attendance sign off, link it to HR training matrix, etc. and it will be fine.
David Bannister  
#5 Posted : 07 April 2016 14:55:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

Agree with the DIY advice given above. Your own material tailored to your operations is a better option than a generalised offering, provided you are able to do the job yourself. However, given the senior leadership example, will you be allowed to take the managers away from their "real" job to receive the training, will they be in a frame of mind to receive it and will they be allowed to implement any changes once it is delivered?
MikeKelly  
#6 Posted : 07 April 2016 14:57:54(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MikeKelly

Hi Chris, As with the above posters-go for it. You know the problems, standards, performance and are well placed to put together an appropriate course-[I wouldn't worry about a certificate anyway] Also another important factor to try and get over to your MD-Health and safety is a mainly management responsibility, as we know, and relies on the individual managers doing their day to day job properly not YOU! Sorry if it's teaching granny again but so many MD's are just like yours! He is also primarily responsible for the Company's OHS performance, not YOU. These issues MUST, however, be emphasised strongly in said course, which he should introduce, support and attend. [Good luck with that!] Regards Mike
Corfield35303  
#7 Posted : 07 April 2016 14:59:33(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Corfield35303

As the above all eloquently say.... You'll know the exact training needs for the company and can tailor the training accordingly, I've previously done two day manager training that was my own, and was at least as good as IOSH off the shelf package, the only fly in the ointment is if you aren't a confident trainer, or there is a need for a recognised 'ticket'.....
IanDakin  
#8 Posted : 07 April 2016 15:00:42(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
IanDakin

Hi Chris Maybe the first issue to tackle is that your advice fell on deaf ears. It is important to get the MD to understand the benefits and legal requirements for training. If they have not come around to this then what will the area managers be able to do without support from the top? Ian
chris42  
#9 Posted : 07 April 2016 15:27:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Thanks for the feedback all. That is also the question David Ian, the training would be course cost plus, 4 days manager cost. But if I do the training the several thousand pounds would go and just leave the time issue, so may swing the negotiation. Last time I just got "no" and he walked away. I am currently preparing our Management review agenda and information, so this can be added as a discussion point with all directors present. As for making the MD understand I just as well go talk to the white line in the middle of the road outside. The MD does not make every decision, so I influence where I can at the moment. I may be able to get the area manager in this as well so another advocate. I figure if I surround the MD with people trying to do the right thing, it cannot hurt. H&S is a bit like sculpture you keep chipping away until the statue that was there all along, can finally be seen. He could be run over by the proverbial red bus at any moment, not that I would wish that of course. In a way I would quite like to do it and on the other hand I know if it comes from someone else as well as me, there is more chance of them believing. Of course it is a lot of work for me to put this all together in a coherent manner. I'm at Grad IOSH level (stupidly messed up timing on CMIOSH, done all the things required, but too long ago- so much for experience) and have done the PTLLS course. So I think I should be able to do this. I also have an Environmental Management cert, so should be able to cover whatever that environmental bit of the course is about. Don't think it was included when I did my training. But have already gone through things like waste transfer and consignments notes, EWC codes and SIC codes, so they have had some. Not sure if this would be sufficient to allow me to actually run an IOSH official course, but I should be able to cover the topics I see listed. I just looked at the training modules on course providers web sites and it seems to be in an odd order? It seems to suggest you do Risk assessment module, then risk controls, then half way down you have hazards. Surly Hazards should be before risk assessment or at least together? Or am I using logic again where I should not? Chris
RayRapp  
#10 Posted : 07 April 2016 15:36:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Chris I recently undertook a similar exercise but instead of calling it 'training' I called it a workshop. I wanted the guys to participate and feel they were providing an input. I made sure the workshop was designed to encourage discussion and group working. In reality, it was training...but who cares, as long as the end justifies the means. Crack on.
WatsonD  
#11 Posted : 07 April 2016 15:47:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

If the issue is that they don't want to lose them for the four days, could they do an online version. Or perhaps if they are more senior they could just do the one day leading safely course?
Mr.Flibble2.0  
#12 Posted : 07 April 2016 15:55:26(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr.Flibble2.0

If 4 days in one is to much why not split it up into manageable chunks. Do a couple to 2 days courses or even a 1 day course once a month. In terms of what order you do it in again you have that choice, some courses i have been on do not make sense! The HSE 5 Steps to Risk Assessment is always a good criteria and works well.
lorna  
#13 Posted : 08 April 2016 12:16:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
lorna

I wanted the managers to do the 4 day IOSH course but was told that I could only have them for a day so I devised my own. I cherry picked from the 4 day syllabus - what were the most important bits to get across? so I skimmed hazards, went through the principles of risk assessment but not in detail and concentrated on responsibility, communication, co-operation. One of my bugbears is woolly aims & objectives where you can never prove if they've been met - your training session/workshop/course (whatever you call it) should have an assessment mechanism to check that it achieves what you said it would.
PIKEMAN  
#14 Posted : 08 April 2016 12:49:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PIKEMAN

Surely the first response would be to tell the MD that he or she is 30 years out of date - and that everyone manages safety, you are just the champion / adviser / manager of H&S systems! Regrettably this attitude is still common place. I was asked recently at an interview as a Safety Manager "if I could discipline staff for not wearing PPE"? My response was no way, since this would be their Manager's responsibility? Unless, that is, those same workers were made to report to me and that my salary would reflect this! I then walked away and they were incredulous (and clueless).
IanDakin  
#15 Posted : 08 April 2016 13:17:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
IanDakin

You could look at the BSC level 2 Supervising Safety course. You could register to training it and then it is 2 days long, cheaper then IOSH Managing Safely and recognized by OffQual.
chris42  
#16 Posted : 08 April 2016 13:49:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Thanks for all the feedback In reverse order I will look into that BSC level 2 cause Ian, thanks. I was thinking more like 40 plus years, almost pre H&S at work act. Apparently he has been on an IOSH directing safely course in the past and thought it was all rubbish. So that is now what I have to work with. Once his mind is made up about something he will not even discuss, so it is a bit like changing the direction of that super tanker, tiny bits at a time. He feels that a risk assessment is just opinion, but if you were to try and show him ACOPS / guidance he will not look at it. He is the king of all he surveys and likes people to know it. I would like to tell him he should get someone he trusts, if not me, but I am the 4th person in 6 years, and the other fared worse than me. I think he is lucky that Jobs here in S Wales are lacking at the moment. Yes, I’m warming to the idea of doing the training myself and it possibly not taking up 4 days, but I would like them to get out of it similar to that of a recognised course. I guess it will take what it takes once I have decided on exactly what will be of benefit to them. Definitely splitting it up is a good idea, I don’t think these people could take 4 days in a row. Not sure if these people would be that comfortable with e learning, I think I will gain more from interactive discussion and team events, so no one individual is shown up. Ray, exactly, I want them to participate. So I already have some thoughts on things to break the day up a little. For instance, their observation of things H&S or Env around each one of their areas is not good, they just don’t seem to see things. I think I will spend a little time on that and how it can be overcome. Plus, let them look at something like that short ball throwing video, where they are asked to count each time a ball is thrown, then asked what was unusual. A bit old, but makes a point. I can plan this for later in the year which may allow me to photograph real examples of issues to discuss from our workplace. If I’m lucky (?) I may be able to do a how many hazards can you spot pic. There seems to be a course book to go with this training (same people who do the NEBOSH cert / dip ones), not sure how good it is, but worth £19 to see if they would be any good as something for them to keep afterwards for reference / further reading etc. Cheers all for the discussion. Chris
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