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Graham  
#1 Posted : 23 May 2016 10:18:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Graham

At the risk of being controversial (smile).

Why do we need to mention legislation when we’re telling our staff about health and safety?

I submit that the legislation is irrelevant to those on the front line. All they need to know is what their employer requires of them. The employer needs to be aware of the law of course, but the workforce does not.

Many local rules are just that, local, and not backed up by specific legislative requirements, just general regulations. For example the speed limit on a private site does not have any specific legislative requirement, just guidance, so in the end it’s what the employer wants not what the law says. Of course they should be in line with each other but the workforce does not need to know that.

The workforce needs to know that if they don’t comply there are sanctions, but these are (or should be) internal, managed (in the first instance) by the employer not the legal system.
WatsonD  
#2 Posted : 23 May 2016 10:37:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

I don't think you are being controversial in this statement. I think it is the general consensus these days to not use legislation as a tool for beating people with.

Company rules, as you say, are local to the way the company runs (manages) their H&S. As long as they (employees) are made aware of the rules, then breaches of these would go through the same disciplinary process as say, lateness or absenteeism.
chris.packham  
#3 Posted : 23 May 2016 10:57:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris.packham

May I suggest that the important aspect of rules is that those affected need to understand the purpose of the rule and that, with health and safety, the rules are there to protect them. In fact, with any rule/legislation, if people do you accept the purpose and benefits of the rule then they tend to ignore it. My preferred approach is to set rules in discussion with those affect wherever possible. That way they understand the purpose of the rule and are more likely to comply.
Chris
Ian Bell2  
#4 Posted : 23 May 2016 11:13:49(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Its the sign of an inexperienced safety adviser, to rely on the legal point of view as a 1st option.
A Kurdziel  
#5 Posted : 23 May 2016 11:26:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

This is not controversial… as far as front line staff are concerned then it is the local, internal rules and policies that are the important thing not the legislation, which for most people is too remote to mean anything significant. It is local rules that will be enforced and local managers who should be dealing with any non-compliance issues. Legislation can come into effect with more senior managers. Conversation goes something like this: “Let’s do it like this”. I say “we can’t. It’s against our long standing policy”. “Change the policy then!” they say. I say “we shouldn’t because we will then not be complying with legislation and the company might get prosecuted and if someone is injured we will get sued etc” Most then say “Oh, let’s see what we can do within the existing policy” although one manager (I never worked out if he was being serious or not) said “Well get the legislation changed then!”
hilary  
#6 Posted : 23 May 2016 11:30:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

I don't tell my staff about legislation when I tell them about Health and Safety. However, if they want to know why, on an individual basis, then we discuss the legal point and why we do what we do. I ran eight Safe Manual Handling courses last week and the Manual Handling Regulations were referred to just once in one course where we looked at capabilities and I had to say that there was no legal upper limit in law.

They don't need to know, that's our job. They need to have programmes and guidelines that are easily understandable and easy to follow.
Invictus  
#7 Posted : 23 May 2016 11:39:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

I refer to them but in no detail and if asked I tell where they can locate them. I do not carry them all with me like some trainers did i the early days. Some people are more curious than others, some are on training because someone sent them and they are not even in the training they are there for, so why bog them down with legislation.
Graham Bullough  
#8 Posted : 23 May 2016 12:22:02(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Graham Bullough

Graham

You are not being controversial. I agree with your points and those of responders so far. One of the unfortunate traits of some H&S professionals in the past is that they felt that their training courses and sometimes correspondence needed to quote H&S law in detail. For the vast majority of employees and line managers this practice was unnecessary and probably reinforced an adverse view that H&S was boring and furthermore expounded by pedantic bores. During most of my years with my immediate former employer, my H&S colleagues and I tried to counter this perception. For example, at the start of training courses, we usually said that much of the content of the courses was underpinned by legislation, i.e. national law enforced by inspectors from HSE as regards our employer's activities and workplaces. Furthermore, we told our trainees that they were not expected to know the legislation. However, if any of them were keen to find out more or discuss the legislation, they were always welcome to ask us at some other time. It seemed that few people ever took up our offers about this! What was more important, as Chris Packham mentioned at #3, was to generate discussion, e.g. by means of a "brainstorm" session with a flipchart (very low tech devices nowadays but still very useful at times) about the purposes and benefits of H&S legislation and company rules, etc.

As an analogy in support of the above-mentioned approach to H&S legislation, I've sometimes said that I'm aware that legislation exists (and why) to require i) the provision and maintenance of seat belts in vehicles and ii) drivers and passengers to use them. However, I cannot quote which particular bit/s of road traffic legislation are involved and, furthermore, don't need to know. However, if I ever feel an urge to know, I believe that the requisite information is readily available from reliable sources on the internet.

Graham B

p.s. It's somewhat worrying to discern from some postings on this forum that some people seem to think (wrongly) that detailed H&S legislation exists to cover every conceivable situation and activity which could occur in workplaces and work activities. One of the benefits for employers of employing or consulting competent H&S professionals is that they use their knowledge, experience, judgement and common sense, etc., to give pragmatic guidance and advice about matters for which legislation is either non-specific (e.g. most of the main sections of the Health and Safety at Work, Etc., Act 1974) or doesn't exist. (Most forum users will understand what I mean by the term 'common sense'. For those who wish to react by saying that it is far from common, please provide an alternative expression with the same gist! )

bigpub  
#9 Posted : 23 May 2016 13:04:58(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
bigpub

I agree with all the above but some people want to know why they need to do a certain task a certain way. For example why you should write a RA out. But yes, mot of the time we mention legislation to show how good we are at remembering.
walker  
#10 Posted : 23 May 2016 13:32:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

Ian Bell2 wrote:
Its the sign of an inexperienced safety adviser, to rely on the legal point of view as a 1st option.


spot on!
It's a sure sign
MEden380  
#11 Posted : 23 May 2016 13:46:43(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MEden380

Agree with what has been said so far but what about -
Section 7. HSAWA "to take reasonable care for the health and safety of himself and of other persons who may be affected by his acts or omissions at work"
jwk  
#12 Posted : 23 May 2016 13:47:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
jwk

walker wrote:
Ian Bell2 wrote:
Its the sign of an inexperienced safety adviser, to rely on the legal point of view as a 1st option.


spot on!
It's a sure sign


unless it's RIDDOR :-)

John
walker  
#13 Posted : 23 May 2016 13:56:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

MEden380 wrote:
Agree with what has been said so far but what about -
Section 7. HSAWA "to take reasonable care for the health and safety of himself and of other persons who may be affected by his acts or omissions at work"


I reduce that to "I dont want to work with anyone who doesnt work safely and looks after his mates"

Most of the world is uninterested in any regs, its just "jobsworthy white noise" to them.
Mr.Flibble2.0  
#14 Posted : 23 May 2016 14:05:57(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr.Flibble2.0

Training sessions will have one slide on the legal side with some bullet points anything more than that and I bore myself.
Andrew W Walker  
#15 Posted : 23 May 2016 14:16:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

quote=walker]
MEden380 wrote:
Agree with what has been said so far but what about -
Section 7. HSAWA "to take reasonable care for the health and safety of himself and of other persons who may be affected by his acts or omissions at work"


I reduce that to "I dont want to work with anyone who doesnt work safely and looks after his mates"

Most of the world is uninterested in any regs, its just "jobsworthy white noise" to them.


I do mention the regs- VERY briefly. I like ""I don't want to work with anyone who doesn't work safely and looks after his mates" that's a good one.

One of the things I try to get across is that we all want the same thing- to go home in the same condition as we came into work.

I must admit that I have had to quote regs, case law to certain Managers who don't really get on board with the 'moral' argument. Sometimes I think its a failure on my part for not being able to get the message over.

Its all good fun!!!!

Andy

walker  
#16 Posted : 23 May 2016 15:41:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
walker

Andy,

In training sessions you do have to touch on the law & regs.
Hilary expresses this better than me.
However when "out and about" I make challenges but would never cite regs

Something along the lines of "how do you plan to carry on playing golf after you have crushed your arm in that machine". An exaggeration but you get the picture.

Common scenario
me: "shouldn't you be wearing safety glasses doing that?"
Them: "Oh yeh! sorry I forgot"
Me: "No need to apologise, it's not me that's going to end up with one eye"

Then follows a conversation and a convert and hopefully a disciple.


biker1  
#17 Posted : 24 May 2016 12:28:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

There is a saying that legislation is only there for the bad guys; the good guys are already doing the right thing.

Bit of an over-simplification, but the sentiment is good.
JohnW  
#18 Posted : 24 May 2016 13:47:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

walker wrote:

Common scenario
me: "shouldn't you be wearing safety glasses doing that?"
Them: "Oh yeh! sorry I forgot"


Quite often that isn't the response that one gets, and getting a conversation can be difficult.

Depending on circumstances, if a supervisor or manager is genuinely interested, I will say something like 'This is what an inspector would pick up on if he was walking round here' and might mention what prosecutions can result from removing guards or not enforcing the wearing of PPE. It just depends on the management personality, and whether they are keen to be seen to be running a two single business.

JohnW  
#19 Posted : 24 May 2016 14:17:59(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

OK fat fingers but darn that predictive text. 'Two single' should read 'responsible' !
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