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RayRapp  
#1 Posted : 24 June 2016 10:35:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

It's me again...looking for a FD30 strategy. So would appreciate your comments. As it stands we do not check residents' flat front doors via the FRA, except implicitly by commenting whether the doors should be FD30s with door closers. The main reason is the access to tenants or leaseholders properties to properly check the doors and ancillary equipment i.e. frames, intumescent seals, brushes, door hinges and letter boxes where fitted.

Therefore I think we will have to have a separate audit and to advise residents in advance to allow access for the auditor. Clearly with 400+ blocks this is quite a task. Wondering if sampling a number of properties in a block could be the answer?
toe  
#2 Posted : 25 June 2016 02:49:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

I am not sure I would adapt this methodology, although I can see your point. Why are you carrying out the FRA in the first place, what is your duty in conducting them (i.e. communal areas only) ? How many floors are in the building/s? Are there vulnerable people in the flats? Any experiences of wilful fire raising in the past? Is AFD fitted to the building, Etc...

When conducting PAT, would you just sample?
toe  
#3 Posted : 25 June 2016 02:58:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
toe

Just to add - yes, an audit would work I think. Once completed just update the FRA from the audit findings.
RayRapp  
#4 Posted : 25 June 2016 08:51:15(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

The reason for checking the fire worthiness of flat front doors is because any door which opens onto a common area must be FD30 rated with self-closing device. So in the case of General Needs flats this will be approx 80% of our housing stock, which equates to about 300 blocks of flats and thousands of flats.
mssy  
#5 Posted : 25 June 2016 09:21:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

I worked on a project to complete FRAs on 100s of flats in a London Borough and we faced a similar problem.

To meet the expectations of the clients & enforcing authority, we held a seminar with the team of risk assessors, the housing trust, the local authority and a senior fire brigade fire safety officer

During that meeting we thrashed out a policy which the assessors would use as our own local guidance to ensure a uniform approach across the large portfolio. Of course, compliance with the FSO was paramount, but how we would meet the various challenges of such a large project in a common sense and pragmatic way
was key.

One are we discussed was the threshold of plants, furniture and object in the common parts - including door mats. The policy was agreed with the fire service to ignore small individual door mats unless they presented a significant trip hazard

Front doors would be visually inspected mainly from the closed position (unless we found any open) and those found to be well fitting and of sound construction would remain even - in some low risk premises- if they were not a FD30S. In the main, we didn't check door closers as accessing every flat would have meant returning out of hours (evenings & weekends) so would have attracted a disproportionate cost to the client for arguably little gain.

Letter boxes also came under scrutiny. The ex firefighters in the meeting agreed that we had never seen significant fire or smoke spread from any letterbox that was at, or below hip height. Those higher in the door may be subject to higher temperatures and smoke layers early on in the development of the fire so were seen as unacceptable, but those positioned towards the floor were ok even if not FR

So if it is possible and a large chunk of your portfolio sits in a few LA areas, talk to them and the enforcers and draw up a memorandum of understanding. For goodness sake keep it simple and pragmatic and make sure the fire service sign up to it. This approach worked for us
RayRapp  
#6 Posted : 25 June 2016 10:38:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Thanks mssy, very useful stuff. Just to clarify I represent an LA so the fire door policy we will own and manage.

If it is practical to assess the doors without accessing the property that would obviously be the best option. However I am not yet convinced we could properly ascertain the doors are FD30 rated, with or without door-closers, at least not without inspecting some properties in the block. We have had some issues with leaseholders and also tenants who have changed their front doors (without permission) and this is likely to exacerbate the problems we face.

I have requested a program for fitting door-closers and emergency lighting where identified in the FRA. However due to the enormous strain on resources these will have to be programmed over a number of years. I have recently contacted the local Fire Safety Team Leader to get his buy in. Notwithstanding this, I usually find fire and rescue tend to be non-committal with contentious issues.
firesafety101  
#7 Posted : 25 June 2016 11:32:05(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

I recently had a discussion with a local fire safety officer and most of the stuff mssy mentioned was part of that discussion.

He did say to check the flat doors to ensure they were the original doors and had not been replaced by UPVC or similar.

RayRapp  
#8 Posted : 26 June 2016 21:30:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Good point, but how do you know existing doors are fire rated. Can you tell just by looking at them from the outside?
firesafety101  
#9 Posted : 27 June 2016 08:43:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
firesafety101

Ray, no you can't.

Fire doors should have a plate on the top edge signifying fire door.

The doors in the common areas from stair well to corridors in a newish block I Recently checked did not have the plate so not fire doors.
RayRapp  
#10 Posted : 27 June 2016 09:17:30(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Therein lies the problem, in order to be sure the doors are FD30 we will need access to at least some of the residents' properties which will be a very onerous task. As you rightly comment, some doors will obviously not be fire rated, but these are not the problem.
chris42  
#11 Posted : 27 June 2016 09:37:17(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

Could you instruct the residence on how to check the door and confirm a working door closer, then email you ! If not they get a visit ?

Would there be more cause for concern if the doors to the flats lead to a protected corridor / stairway. If a resident on a lower floor, does not have a closer and then has a fire, when they leave the door will remain open and cause problems for others getting out. So how can you not check in some way.
mssy  
#12 Posted : 27 June 2016 19:31:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
mssy

RayRapp wrote:
Good point, but how do you know existing doors are fire rated. Can you tell just by looking at them from the outside?


On our project (see post 5), the local fire service fire safety enforcement manager accepted that examining 1000s of front doors would be impossible, or at the very least financially disproportionate for our client.

We agreed that every door would be examined from the outside to see if it passed a visual test. This involved a range of criteria such as" no uPVC, no large non FR glazed sections, in good condition with letter box flap fitted low in the door, the door should be solid construction and fit tight in the frame - plus one or two other criteria.

Those that didn't pass the test would be noted on the FRA report with photos, to be mopped up at a later date by the client independently of the FRA project. Urgent situations with very poor doors in risk critical locations - say on single staircase conditions in scruffier buildings - would be phoned through whilst on site. I never found any which fitted that criteria

We felt (and so did the client and enforcers) that this pragmatic approach would allow the risk assessors to get on with the job and complete this FRA contract across this huge estate, thereby reaching as many residents in the shortest time possible, without be bogged down determining "is this a BS fire door or not?"

The key is working with the fire safety enforcement team before you embark on the task. We were lucky as we liaised with a very competent fire service fire safety manager/team leader bursting with common sense and pragmatism - not everyone will be so lucky I suppose
David Bannister  
#13 Posted : 28 June 2016 10:55:06(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
David Bannister

My experience exactly mirrors that described by mssy above.

It is simply not feasible to verify each door. Our main focus was on ensuring that the common areas were clear, the lighting was OK and the doors looked as described above. Any obvious faults were notified to the client's managing agents for resolution. Often there was a local site manager who knew his tenants and could react quickly.
RayRapp  
#14 Posted : 28 June 2016 11:28:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

Thanks David, mssy, et al,

I think I have enough information to take this matter forward. I am hoping the local LFB Safety Team Leader will respond to my recent email so that we can agree on a sensible strategy for assessing the worthiness of flat front doors. If not, I will implement a policy based on the collective thoughts of my peers - cheers.

Off to Spain today for a well earned break - adios.

Ray
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