Rank: Forum user 
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'morning all,
Bit of a dispute internally about fire drills going on, mainly focusing on frequency and what is actually deemed to count as a drill, the arguments are
1. Frequency, 1 drill every 6 months or 1 per year?
2. Does a real (not staged) evacuation count as a drill? some say yes, others no?
Would appreciate any thoughts on this.
Thanks
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Depends on where you work, I don't have a problem with live drills being used, you learn the same things from a live one as a drill. If you work in residential or schools , it could be 4 times per year, if you work in a low risk environment once a year.
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Rank: Forum user
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Hi Invictus,
Thanks for the reply.
I work in a University and currently carry out Bi-Annual drill which I feel is sufficient. We are not a particularly high risk environment, no labs etc so aside from the youthful exuberance of students, its no more high risk than an office environment.
I have always counted live drills but someone has challenged this but I feel, as you say, they provided as good a test of evacuation procedures/fire wardens/escape routes etc as a planned drill.
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Rank: Forum user 
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I agree with all above comments. In my opinion, you cant get anymore realistic than a unplanned fire alarm activation, so why shouldn't it count. We carry out fire drills twice a year in the day and twice a year during the night shift. We also create scenarios such as blocked routes and I sometimes have a colleague stay in a particular area and see if the fire wardens spot them whilst they are carrying out the building sweep. In my opinion, frequency really is specific to the risks present in your environment as Invictus has said.
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Rank: Super forum user
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In the case of a university I would do at least annual personally I think bi annual is to long. You could always speak to the local fire rescue and ask thier advice. Saying that it is your risk assessment.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Is this the university itself as an educational centre or are you including student accommodation?
I worked in student accommodation and we undertook drills each term- we did like others and blocked exit routes etc.
It's amazing the amount of complaints received for doing silly things such as fire drills from many a sleeping student, and their parents.
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Rank: Forum user
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Thanks Invictus.
We do a drill twice yearly. Not to be a grammar bore but that's what I meant by bi-annual. Its biennial that means every two years :)
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Rank: Super forum user 
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I was challenged by an insurer on using real evacuations to count as drills, they eventually accepted my argument (with reports as evidence) that we learned at least as much from a real evacuation as from a planned drill.
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Rank: Forum user
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jodieclark1510 wrote:Is this the university itself as an educational centre or are you including student accommodation?
I worked in student accommodation and we undertook drills each term- we did like others and blocked exit routes etc.
It's amazing the amount of complaints received for doing silly things such as fire drills from many a sleeping student, and their parents. No accommodation at our place, no.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Russ1977 wrote:Thanks Invictus.
We do a drill twice yearly. Not to be a grammar bore but that's what I meant by bi-annual. Its biennial that means every two years :) Thanks sir, I expected to see it marked in red with a see me! after it.
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Rank: Forum user
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Invictus wrote:Russ1977 wrote:Thanks Invictus.
We do a drill twice yearly. Not to be a grammar bore but that's what I meant by bi-annual. Its biennial that means every two years :) Thanks sir, I expected to see it marked in red with a see me! after it. hahaha Not a chance, there are many H&S practitioners that would have though. My comment was merely made to avoid confusion in the topic.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Russ1977 wrote:Invictus wrote:Russ1977 wrote:Thanks Invictus.
We do a drill twice yearly. Not to be a grammar bore but that's what I meant by bi-annual. Its biennial that means every two years :) Thanks sir, I expected to see it marked in red with a see me! after it. hahaha Not a chance, there are many H&S practitioners that would have though. My comment was merely made to avoid confusion in the topic. I did look it up and depending on where you lok even in the UK it 'biannual' can be used to mean both twice a year or every other year. So I stood in the corner for nothing.
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Rank: Super forum user
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It is one of those words like 'inflammable' that has become so ambiguous it is just not worth using any more. So I say six-monthly, every two years, flammable or non-flammable to avoid confusion.
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Rank: Forum user
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Had a good one today. The facilities manager put an email out saying that there is going to be a fire drill on September 14th at 14.00!!! Apparently, this is to advise any visitors who may be on the premises that this will be taking place. Needless to say the individual has been spoken too and re-educated on the need to not inform people that this will be happening.
From the original post though. i like the idea of blocking an exit during a fire drill and this is something that I will be discussing with the facilities manager!!!
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Rank: Forum user
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Response 14 reminded me of conversations about drills.
I have a problem with not telling people it’s a drill because in effect you’re crying wolf. Every time an unannounced alarm goes off you’ll hear the same refrain ‘it’s only a drill’. Which defeats the object in my view.
You want an unannounced alarm to mean something serious, and not to fall into the default position that ‘it’s only a drill’.
Of course, it does require that everyone plays the game and does not take the morning of the drill off, but if this happens, it’s a line management disciplinary issue.
I also like the idea of blocking an exit, but since I’ve never had the opportunity, I’ve never been able to do it. Similarly, with getting someone to just stay put and see if the fire marshals notice!
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Rank: Forum user
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We have an unannounced drill at least every 12 months and use accidental alarms as a drill. I produce a report on every evacuation including any issues and how long the warehouse and office take to congregate etc.
While the general population do not know it is coming I alert the call centre manager (so she can be ready with the answerphone and the directors pa (just to avoid any VIPs!)
Where we plan them, the H&S committee block the favourite escape routes (which tend to be the way that people walk into the building in the morning!) and this adds an edge to it.
During our latest we "trapped" the accounts team on the top floor and this highlighted a lack of familiarity with their alternative escape route which is onto the roof and be rescued by the fire brigade.
The fire brigade and our insurers are both happy with this process.
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Rank: Super forum user
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We inform staff of an impending drill every time and inform them that the drill will involve random Q&A of staff, managers and fire marshalls as to the emergency plan and their responsibilities.
This tends to get people looking up what they need to know (or in the case of managers/team leaders - what their teams should do) as they do not wish to be embarrassed in front of their peers.
I think this approach is far more valuable than a surprise drill catching people out
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Rank: Super forum user
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As I said earlier depends on where you work, I walk now predominantly in residential establishments, elderly, dementia, children, mental health etc. In education it used to be 4 annually, not biannually or biennially, residential homes are the same. But, I have to ask myself who are we training, the residents are transient so to speak, so I consentrate on eduacation of the staff, what thier role is in a fire situation how they understand evacuation procedures, what infomation they need in the case of PEEP's that most if not all of the residents have.
Quite often we do not have a full evacuation as some residents will not remember what the alarm sounds like or even what it means so it is upto the staff to respond appropriately.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Rank: New forum user
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I work at a manufacturing plant and when I run drills I normally carry them out unannounced but the argument above for announcing them and perhaps quizzing certain staff is definitely worth considering; something I will personally take on board so thanks for that info!
With regards blocking exits, I would encourage this. Whether staff know it's a drill or not in my experience they tend to leave through the front door rather than the nearest exit. Blocking our two main front doors forces staff to find the nearest exit and use it; better to have the staff figure this out in a drill then during an actual evacuation
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Rank: Super forum user 
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The problem with people knowing in advance is they act differently. ie they will make sure they are in a different place or have their coats on, car keys in pocket, a mug of coffee, their sarnies with them, etc etc etc. Top floor spookily devoid of people or person with mobility issues at ground level as they are terrified of the evac chair!
It should be up to the individual company what is best for them. I have had fire wardens just come back from training insisting that they Must announce before. That was what they were told on their course. Well known provider, normally associated with first aid.
Chris
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Rank: Super forum user
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I think you have to judge by the complexity of your workplace (which is a way of avoiding saying do a risk assessment!).
We moved 4 companies into a new 3-storey business centre last year, which is easy to clear. I did one pre-announced drill which was to help people familiarise themselves with the route and muster points and then began 6-monthly unannounced a month later. We just had our second this morning. It's a good point about becoming complacent about unexpected alarm activations, though - I'll have a think about that.
I hid an estimator from the top floor in my office and her fire wardens were confident no-one was unaccounted for - it was a good learning exercise for all the wardens in the building, they were all quite shocked when we got together afterwards for a debrief.
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Rank: Super forum user
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gramsay wrote:I think you have to judge by the complexity of your workplace (which is a way of avoiding saying do a risk assessment!).
We moved 4 companies into a new 3-storey business centre last year, which is easy to clear. I did one pre-announced drill which was to help people familiarise themselves with the route and muster points and then began 6-monthly unannounced a month later. We just had our second this morning. It's a good point about becoming complacent about unexpected alarm activations, though - I'll have a think about that.
I hid an estimator from the top floor in my office and her fire wardens were confident no-one was unaccounted for - it was a good learning exercise for all the wardens in the building, they were all quite shocked when we got together afterwards for a debrief. You mean you sat them in the office, if they were hiding then what where you playing see how many people I can put at risk.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Invictus wrote:
You mean you sat them in the office, if they were hiding then what where you playing see how many people I can put at risk.
Happy to try to explain. gramsay wrote:I hid an estimator from the top floor in my office The exit route outside the building passes windows into my office. She was sitting somewhere out of sight. Does that answer your question? Invictus wrote:
if they were hiding then what where you playing see how many people I can put at risk.
But no idea what you mean here.
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Rank: Super forum user
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gramsay wrote:Invictus wrote:
You mean you sat them in the office, if they were hiding then what where you playing see how many people I can put at risk.
Happy to try to explain. gramsay wrote:I hid an estimator from the top floor in my office The exit route outside the building passes windows into my office. She was sitting somewhere out of sight. Does that answer your question? Invictus wrote:
if they were hiding then what where you playing see how many people I can put at risk.
But no idea what you mean here. You said you 'hid' her in your office, what in a cupboard or did you ask her to sit in your office, fire wardens then looking for her if she is hidden are at risk so they would only look in the office to check, not look under desks, in cupbaords etc. to see if anyone was hiding. What are you training a fire warden or a blood hound.
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Rank: Super forum user
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I need a bigger office, no chance of hiding someone in mine.
We do twice a year, but most of our sites are manufacturing or have welding on site, and it covers a lot of new starters...
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Rank: Forum user
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We recommend twice a year for the majority of our premises, but a small library with only 1 member of staff and a volunteer we don't ask to do any, however following a recent terrible run of poor evacuation drills in one or our Elderly persons homes we are recommending 4 per year until we are satisfied that all staff are clear on what to do. It really does depend on the risk and is a judgement as part of the risk assessment process as with most things.
EL
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Rank: Super forum user
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Invictus wrote:
You said you 'hid' her in your office, what in a cupboard or did you ask her to sit in your office, fire wardens then looking for her if she is hidden are at risk so they would only look in the office to check, not look under desks, in cupbaords etc. to see if anyone was hiding.
What are you training a fire warden or a blood hound.
Invictus, I've re-read what I wrote earlier. Everything you need to understand the situation is in those posts. No-one was put at risk, and the top-floor fire wardens considered this a very useful exercise. I don't want Russ1977's topic derailed with endless sidetracking, so let's leave it here.
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