Welcome Guest! The IOSH forums are a free resource to both members and non-members. Login or register to use them

Postings made by forum users are personal opinions. IOSH is not responsible for the content or accuracy of any of the information contained in forum postings. Please carefully consider any advice you receive.

Notification

Icon
Error

Options
Go to last post Go to first unread
Paul911  
#1 Posted : 30 September 2016 15:38:07(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Paul911

Hi All,

We have always worded our safety policies as all electrical work must be completed by a fully qualified electrician, but we have never quantified what that actually means. So now we have a shop location that has an employee who they wish to use to wire in light fittings and plug sockets to save money. Are there any electricians that can tell me what exact sort of qualifications I should be checking for to ensure competence?

All advice gratefully received guys and girls.

Regards,

Paul

paul.skyrme  
#2 Posted : 30 September 2016 16:25:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Firstly Paul they must be competent. Replacing light fittings, do you mean lamps or complete fittings? Like for like, or modifications? Adding or simply replacing damaged socket outlets? Firstly they MUST be able to safely and competently identify the circuits and isolate in accordance with accepted industry practice. If they can't do that then it's a non-starter. Next, they must be able to verify that their work does no reduce the safety of the installation. If they are doing like for like maintenance, then BS7671 does not require any formal certification, however, they must be able to prove that their work is safe. This would require live testing of fault loops. If they can't do that and don't have the equipment and competence to undertake live testing then that's another non-starter. Does this help?
StewartRussell82  
#3 Posted : 30 September 2016 18:25:28(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
StewartRussell82

I agree with Paul, qualifications don't always mean competence. (An example is I hold PRINCE2 but would neaver call myself a project manager) Back to electrics (I am however an electrical engineer) I would look for some of the following qualms: NVQ level 3 electrical installation City & Guilds 2382 - wiring regulations City & Guilds 2391 or 2394/95 - electrical testing Possibly look to see if they are members of IET or another engineering institute. I would also look at some examples of previous work on there CV, see if they have done similar work. Hope this helps?
PIKEMAN  
#4 Posted : 03 October 2016 11:02:58(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PIKEMAN

You don't have to be an electrician, or an electrical engibneer, or hold any formal qualifications to work with electricity. It all depends on what you are doing and your competence. The electricty at work regs state that"Regulation 16 Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work." So, to do simple repair work  such as replacing a plug or fuse or bulb can be done by people who have basic knowledge  and perhaps some training.  The electrcian's secret brotherhood always likes to make out that you always have to be an electrican, but this is simply NOT TRUE. As above, it is dependent on what you are doing, the complexity of the systems, and the individual's competence. You can train anyone to do SIMPLE electrical work. 

paul.skyrme  
#5 Posted : 04 October 2016 08:45:46(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Pikeman, From HSR25 Regulation 16 Persons to be competent to prevent danger and injury No person shall be engaged in any work activity where technical knowledge or experience is necessary to prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury, unless he possesses such knowledge or experience, or is under such degree of supervision as may be appropriate having regard to the nature of the work. Guidance para 234: 234 The object of the regulation is to ensure that people are not placed at risk due to a lack of skills on the part of themselves or others in dealing with electrical equipment. It goes on to say: “... prevent danger or, where appropriate, injury ...” 235 This regulation uses both of the terms, ‘injury’ and ‘danger’. The regulation therefore applies to the whole range of work associated with electrical equipment where danger may arise and whether or not danger (or the risk of injury) is actually present during the work. It will include situations where the elimination of the risk of injury, ie the prevention of danger, for the duration of the work is under the control of someone who must therefore possess sufficient technical knowledge or experience, or be so supervised, etc to be capable of ensuring that danger is prevented. For example, where someone is to effect the isolation of some electrical equipment before they undertake some work on the equipment, they will require sufficient technical knowledge or experience to prevent danger during the isolation. There will be no danger from the equipment during the work, provided that the isolation has been carried out properly; danger will have been prevented but the person doing the work must have sufficient technical knowledge or experience so as to prevent danger during that work, for example by knowing not to work on adjacent ‘live’ circuits. Then it says: Technical knowledge or experience 237 The scope of ‘technical knowledge or experience’ may include: (a) adequate knowledge of electricity; (b) adequate experience of electrical work; (c) adequate understanding of the system to be worked on and practical experience of that class of system; (d) understanding of the hazards which may arise during the work and the precautions which need to be taken; (e) ability to recognise at all times whether it is safe for work to continue. So, yes you can train anyone to work safely with electricity. Once you ensure that they meet the requirements of the above guidance, generally. However, the OP is looking at unskilled persons undertaking modifications to & maintenance on the fixed electrical installation as covered by BS7671, which HSE endorse as a good way of meeting the requirements of EAWR89. Also in a commercial environment, where potentially members of the public have access as far as I can see. Now I don't think that a couple of weeks training covers the requirements, just ask the family of Emma Shaw.
PIKEMAN  
#6 Posted : 04 October 2016 10:10:47(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
PIKEMAN

Paul I suggest that you re read my post, which I believe to be correct. As you stated, you have to be competent. Which I stated. Note, not "an electrician" but "competent". Which I believe is what your post also says. I completely believe that you have to treat electricity with respect, and know your limitations.
rileym  
#7 Posted : 07 October 2016 14:20:00(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
rileym

Pikeman as and electrician and a H&S practioner I find you comment "secret brotherhood" a little concerning. Would that be a similar "secret brotherhood" of gas safe engineers who help ensure gas safety.  I have seen many, many cases of very dangerous work undertaken by DIYers who think they can dabble with anything including electrical installation.  From a shower wired with 1.5mm2 cable and the homeoner complaing of a burning smell when she used it.  To four socket outlets wired from a join near another socket outlet, this time using 1mm square cable.  six inch nails cut and inserted where a fuse should be.  I could go on........  But the point I would make is how can anyone "know their limitations" if they dont know much about the subject or have had no training. As an electrician, no longer up to date with IEE regulations etc. there is very little I can do in my own house nowadays, because I cannot correctly test and certify the work I have carried out.  So I would say without proper evidence of competence as outlined by a previous poster, electrical work should be restricted to:

- Changing light bulbs and maybe restting MCBs, but only if there is an understanding as to why it tripped e.g. a blown older style light bulb is a common cause of tripping.  

Just for a second go back to my point with a gas boiler installation, how much of that should an unqualified person touch?  nothing, absolutely nothing except the controls. 

paul.skyrme  
#8 Posted : 13 October 2016 20:17:21(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
paul.skyrme

Originally Posted by: PIKEMAN Go to Quoted Post
Paul I suggest that you re read my post, which I believe to be correct. As you stated, you have to be competent. Which I stated. Note, not "an electrician" but "competent". Which I believe is what your post also says. I completely believe that you have to treat electricity with respect, and know your limitations.

Well that is not what your original post suggests IMHO.

Electricity kills, you can't smell it, you can't see it, but, by heck you can feel it.

Your comments are somewhat IMHO somewhat off the mark in your first post, because in your subsequent post you agree on competence, so, an electrician would be competent, who else would unless they are as competent as an electrician etc.?

ExDeeps  
#9 Posted : 14 October 2016 07:00:33(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
ExDeeps

Competence and qualifications are very much "eye of the beholder" in my opinion. I'll give you a couple of personal examples. I spent 24 years as an electrical (Generation, distribution, control and instrumentaion) technician in the Royal navy and I knew my kit..... When I started in an oil refinery I very quickly realised I did not have a clue what I was doing or looking at as the systems worked on completely different design assumptions. Now, here's the thing, although I was highly qualified and able to operate, maintain and fix a nuclear reactor control and protection system when I fitted a new alarm on my car I could not get a discount on my insurance because I was not a certified auto electrician (You can imagine my confusion trying to argue that one). So, both qualifications and competence are vital, but also they must be RELEVANT to the systems be they electrical or mechanical or even digging up a road to be of any worth.

Jim

Users browsing this topic
Guest
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.