Hi everyone, 

I have looked through the Code of conduct and visited the HSE's site to try and find a definitive legal answer to this question without success.

Can someone please tell me where I stand about the following scenario? I am only talking about the legal duties and not the moral at this time.

Q: If for instance, I was out shopping or some other venue, and saw unsafe practices etc occurring, am I legally obligated to report, intervene, speak to them etc or is my jurisdiction confined to my place of work?

I understand that H&S managers are not inspectors, but there is a moral obligation here surely. Where does the law end in concern with boundaries? I wouldn't want to ignore any dangerous situations but at the same time, I wouldn't want to take a step outside my pay grade and find myself on the receiving end of legal action.

Thanks in advance guys.

I agree with above post, there is no legal duty intervene if you should happen to see an unsafe act occurring or someone in distress. Indeed, in most cases you would not even get a 'thank you' for your trouble.

Incidentally, in the USA they have a 'Good Samaritan' law whereby it could be an offence if you passed by when someone needed your assistance and you could have helped. No such thing in the UK but only your conscience.  

I think off duty police face the same dilema every day, shall they get involved or look the other way just because they are off duty? 

I work in Construction on major sites accross london and when doing site audits for my company i do tell others from different companies if i see an unsafe act happening. How would i be a good health and safety manager if something bad happened and i saw it previously.

However out of work its different, i would not want to get involved as it would be deemed to me just sticking my nose in where it don't belong kinda thing, I'd end up with a torrant of abuse and for only trying to help.

Thats where you need to take a step back, Fair enough if you could report it and go on your way fine, But to stand there and want something to change that you have no control of, and risk personal injury then i would sooner cut the risks and walk.

Whilst some people can be helped you can't help everyone all the time

Two parts to your question. Legal duty is answered - theres certainly no statutory duty.

Butt I reckon their might be a common law duty. If you were standing on a street and could see a blind person walking towards an unguarded hole in the ground and said nothing I'd argue that you would be negligent if you just stood back and let them walk into it! So thats the "moral" or common law duty.

But there certainly also seems to be a professional ethical duty here. You are a professional, of course you should act. You have to use a bit of judgement - otherwise you'd spend your whole day reporting issues you'd observed on other peoples's worksites. But if it really does look like "an accident waiting to happen" I certainly have spoken to people, or taken a photo and phoned the company up. 

I personally would be horrified if IOSH members were "walking by" when they saw something badly wrong.

No duty at all common or otherwise. Just keep walking if that is what you want to do, I would bet nust of us do, why end up on the end of verbal or physical abuse for no reason. Most people won't change the way they work because someone has said that they work in health and safety. Your health and safety is important so leave them to it.

I'm with Garry, no conscience at all wouldn't even give it another thought and yes even if someone was hurt or killed.

I am not on duty 24/7 and I am not paid to look after everyone, let captain america, iron man and the likes do that!

An interesting debate. Personally I have reported/intervened - usually to the relevant enforcing authority.

For those who would walk on by, out of interest, at what point would you draw the line and do something? For example you are in a restaurant and see the chef display some dreadful personal hygiene whilst preparing the food - would you get up and go, talk to the manager, not say anything, or call the EHO? What about a shop or restaurant with the fire door blocked up with stock or chained shut? What about a suspect package on a train or station platform, would you notify anyone about that? What about walking past a primary school and seeing someone by the fence photographing the kids, would you ignore that, or discreetly inform the police or the school? I think we would all have a desire to do something if the circumstances warrented it - particularly the last two examples above... but a couple of blokes on a building site not wearing a hard hat, no I would leave them to it.

I think it depends on the circumstances - but personally, yes I would intervene if I thought it was appropriate, especially when it affects other people.

All the best, Jonathan

Originally Posted by: Jonathan Hughes

An interesting debate. Personally I have reported/intervened - usually to the relevant enforcing authority.

For those who would walk on by, out of interest, at what point would you draw the line and do something? For example you are in a restaurant and see the chef display some dreadful personal hygiene whilst preparing the food - would you get up and go, talk to the manager, not say anything, or call the EHO? What about a shop or restaurant with the fire door blocked up with stock or chained shut? What about a suspect package on a train or station platform, would you notify anyone about that? What about walking past a primary school and seeing someone by the fence photographing the kids, would you ignore that, or discreetly inform the police or the school? I think we would all have a desire to do something if the circumstances warrented it - particularly the last two examples above... but a couple of blokes on a building site not wearing a hard hat, no I would leave them to it.

I think it depends on the circumstances - but personally, yes I would intervene if I thought it was appropriate, especially when it affects other people.

All the best, Jonathan

Throwing everthing into the hat is totally unfair, 'if you seen s man taking photographs of kids' if started off as H&S not the whole world of problems, would you challenge him or have you listened to the news this morning when people were asked to take more notice.

I will do what I feel appropriate at the time and some I might get up and walk out, hygiene in a restraunt, fire doors chained, I am not here to ensure the safety of the world I am paid to do a job and that is what i do. If you feel you must intervene then that is up to you or anyone who wants to I would not I might just get up and walk out if things presented a danger and might not do anything people need to be more aware of thier surroundings. I wouldn't feel guilty in the morning!

Well I for one am genuinely surprised and frankly, saddened, to find myself in the minority here. Clearly we can't always intervene but if there is "serious and imminent danger" then I think that those of you who would walk on by, for whom their job starts when they walk through their own factory gate, are utterly wrong. It certainly isnt "just a job" for me or frankly for most of the safety professionals I have worked with over the last 25 years.. 

I was walking past a large construction site in London one day and saw a heavy item apparantly snagged and suspended from a projection 30 feet up on a newly built lift core. It looked precarious, it looked dangerous. people seemed to be walking beneath it. I found the site info board, phoned the PC and sent them a photo. He was grateful. Had I misunderstood what I'd seen? Was it really dangerous? DId I save someone from being hurt? No idea but I know damn well I'm glad I took the time to stop and say something. What did it cost me? 5 minutes? Time well spent. 

And that absolutely is a dig at some of the sontrary views expressed here..

I am "utterly wrong" - I have my professional life and my private life wherein family, friends and acquaintances constantly rib me regarding my career in the former.

I will challenge supermarkets with padlocked/blocked fire exits

I will leave a restaraunt exhibiting poor hygiene standards

I will report poor examples being observed by those to whom I owe a professional duty

I will not go around sticking my nose in to everyone elses business - my dynamic risk assessment indicates outcomes ranging from verbal abuse to physical assault so N.M.P. = Not My Problem

Two camps on this one it would appear, however seems to be the "intervene" uber safety proffesionals who seem to have a problem with those that are comfortable walking past danger! Some happy to have a dig too it would appear at the opposing view.

Just a thought from me, and hopefully someone can put up such a case it would make me consider my position of happily walking by stuff and not just accepting being a Safety Manager is just my day job.

Why do some people seem to think that being a Safety Proffesional is more than a job? Surely that would be a contradiction  to my personal identity if I include my occupation withn my identity. A factor I am sure can be attributed to a decline in health following retirement.

What other occupations should take this stance, or is it just uber safety proffesionals? Should binmen go about haraunging litter louts? should hairdressers go about challenging folk with awful hairstyles? 3) Should off duty firemen go about challenging poor fire safety practices? Maybe we could get driving examiners to spend the weekend challening the god awful drivers that appear on a Sunday.

Some glib points, but can someone please tell me why in this job I am challenged for not giving a monkeys during my own free time? Don't bother with the moral stuff, my conscience is clear.

Hi Roundtuit

Thanks for that.

I'm not entirely sure that a French Judge would accept 'not my problem' as a valid defence particularly if the hazard was serious compared to the risk to your good self  

However, for the avoidance of doubt, I think the IOSH code of conduct should require intervention by members in serious cases

Does anyone agree?

Regards

Mike 

Morally for me, it all depends on the particular scenario and the circumstances around it. It also depends on what level of taking action we are considering is appropriate e.g. confronting a group of strangers, or reporting to employer/ police/ HSE/ LA ,etc. as to whether I would intervene or not. There are far too many variables to make a firm decision one way or another to be fair. It seems those wanting to take action are thinking worst case scenario only.

However, the OPs question asks whether there is a duty placed on H&S practitioners not to walk on by. In which case no, and that is only fair. I see no reason why we should have more of a responsibility to intervene than any other passerby who was in a position to help.

Given the lack at this stage of anyone posting a direct link to, or quote from, actual UK legislation the answer is NO

Any legal implications or obligations around conducting unsafe acts are placed squarely upon those with direct and immediate control i.e. employer and employees

In he UK, there is no common law liability for the failure of a bystander to intervene in the event of imminent danger other than in circumstances where there is a relationship between the parties - parent/child, employer/employee etc.

See Lord Keith in Yuen Kun Yeu  - "otherwise there would be liability in negligence on the part of one who sees another about to walk over a cliff with his head in the air, and forebears to shout a warning" The second, which flows from the first, is that the law does not normally impose a positive duty on a person to protect others.

I have had a pm from Mr Insurance which given his insight from the legal beagle prespective is likely of relevance to this discussion

"Hi there, I'm trying to post on the forum but for some reson it's not letting me.

If it's of interest, look at Lord Keith in "Yuen Kun Yue" - in the UK a bystander has no common law duty of care to warn others. Only in circumstances where there is a relationship - employer/employee, parent/child etc."

NOTE: this post has been presented as information for the discussion and is courtesy of another member

Crumbs, maybe I look at this a bit simplistically - I intervene when there is immediate danger to me or someone else,  eg I stopped a demolition worker "bombing" roofing tiles into a skip on a busy city centre footpath then rang the HSE, I intervened to stop a young man (under 18) falling from the roof of small building because his boss had sent him up on the roof using a stepladder 4ft too short and sent the supervisor off to get a longer stepladder I contacted the Local Authority on that one because it was a shop.   I probably do, somthing like that a couple of times per year, I don't think of it as being a moral duty or as part of my persona as a "health and safety" person of 40yrs standing.  I'd like to think that anyone who saw a situation that could lead to someone getting hurt would do something about it, but I suppose that my experience means I'm a bit more aware than most.