Rank: New forum user 
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I have a scenario, which seems to be a bit of a grey area to me, and I would like others' opinions or references: There is a 17 year-old apprentice who works with mobile engineers. There is a base of operations/office. The apprentice is required to 'make his way' (by any means necessary) to a meeting point with an engineer and has to travel through unlit country lanes to do so. To pick him up is generally an additional 20-30 minutes to travel and the engineer is paid travel time as they have to drive to a changing place of work.
Additionally, when engineers are required in the office, they come in for the office opening time rather than leaving earlier; this stands for the apprentice who also has to make their own way in to the office, when required, involving the same hazards on that route.
What are the legal responsibilities of the company here? And what have others done in a similar situation?
Thanks, Steven
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Whilst I understand your concerns, I can't see what you feel you should do?
School children walk to school sometimes through hazardous routes - this is not the responsibility of the school.
This apprentice is 17 years old, and had they passed a test would be legally allowed to drive a bike or car on Britains roads.
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IMHO the companies responsibilities start when they arrive at their place of work, with the exception of the driver collecting another employee (as this is part of his job/company instruction), which starts when they leave home. Otherwise they are considered to be travelling to work.
Edited by user 18 May 2017 11:31:58(UTC)
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1 user thanked douglas.dick for this useful post.
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Rank: New forum user
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Originally Posted by: WatsonD  Whilst I understand your concerns, I can't see what you feel you should do?
School children walk to school sometimes through hazardous routes - this is not the responsibility of the school.
This apprentice is 17 years old, and had they passed a test would be legally allowed to drive a bike or car on Britains roads.
Essentially, it was a concern raised by a parent but one I have never encountered regarding commuting before. Researching this has proven to be a bit of a grey area as to where their "working day" starts, given the nature of the work but, should further concerns be raised, I guess we could always suggest he makes the longer journey into the office to be collected!?
Re: other modes of transport, we discussed that point too. I believe the concern there was that riding would be safer than walking but he takes too long to get his bike ready... I have suggested that, if he walks, that he is adequately dressed/lit to be visible on his journey.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Interesting that the parent was concerned for their YA, but felt it to be your responsibility. Hats of to you for giving this consideration.
Having worked in a college for years I know that parents can (however well meaning) make a small issue so much worse.
However, long it takes to get ready to cycle, must surely be ofset by the faster mode of transport?
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Rank: New forum user
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That was my thinking about travel time; I think the parent/youth relationship, coupled with the fact he looks and acts quite young (unfortunately those years are behind me) means he is somewhat treated that way so, it is certainly a new subject for me to consider but I can understand her concerns.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Seems to me that you simply have to determine whether the apprentice is deemed to be a 'mobile worker' or not. As the work is with 'mobile engineers' it would seem on the face of it to be obvious that the apprentice is also 'mobile'. If that determination hasn't been made then perhaps it should have been? If not a mobile employee then the responsibility for getting to/from the identified place of work (the office?) is that of the employee. If the apprentice is 'mobile' then the Working Time Regs give you the answer and identify a HASAWA duty to manage that part of the work of the apprentice. - Travel time to and from work is not usually counted as working hours. However, travel as part of the employee's duties is. Travel to and from clients at the start and finish of a day is classed as working time where mobile workers have no fixed place of work.
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Rank: New forum user
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Thanks Pete, I'd class him as a mobile worker as he is assisting mobile engineers for the most part of his work. The area that's still a little fuzzy for me is, in this situation he is being picked up by the engineer - the engineer has determined where he will pick him up. If it was 5 metres from his house or 5 kilometres; is it merely a question of how much to mitigate the risk of getting to the pick up point or does the duty begin when he gets into the van?
I'm certainly learning something new today!
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Rank: Forum user
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Your legal duty begins when he steps into the van, if the company have instructed him to be picked up. If on the other hand he is being picked up by a driver as its on his way there and not under instruction then they are both travelling to work.
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Rank: Forum user
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Anybody under 18 is NOT an adult in law irrespective of any other factor so 'safe systems of work' need to account for this and additional 'duty's of care' are present e.g. when an adult waits for a van legal duties are different to a non-adult waiting for a van -- this area is a pain for employers [even the good ones who should be commended and welcomed] and those placing such 'children' into work areas [who make a lot of money out of the exercise]
This 'working' age group is in a grey area as little real bespoke HSE advice appears to be out there although this age group when in full time education are treated diferently with more support and advice around
Take each area step by step, evaluate accordingly and present the findings to management as its their duty to manage - best of luck
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Rank: Super forum user
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Refer to ACAS guidance on Peripatetic workers - workers with no fixed work base.plus the reference to the European Court of Justice in a recent case gave the judgement that workers who have no fixed place of work, and spend time travelling from home to the first and last customer, should have this time considered as working time.
This implies that indeed travelling from home to the first and from last customer is work related for workers with no fixed work base"!
However, what can an employer reasonably do in context of lighting on public roads, the width of the carriage way ( i.e country road??) when the apprentice is for all practical purposes "commuting" to the Company Van pick up point , provided the Apprentice holds a full current driving license for his car. At the most, the amployer, if wanting to do it ( not essential in my view!) can put the apprentic through a focussed defensive driving course on these roads without lighting ??
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perhaps give copy of highway code to both and discuss transport risk assessment with both, copy of driver handbook to both - why wouldn't you. i would say you have duty from house because, after an incident, you cant say accurately that demarcation point is and different at collection/drop off to walking to house. issue high vis for walking and quiz on how to keep safe. safe cycing courses are available via council transport people for staying safe on road as cyclist, discussions also ref pedestrian safety on course too. need also to have some emergency contact if should be there and aren't / protocol in case knocked over to notify parents etc, so they and you don't find out about potential accident via facebook. possible discussion ref earphones and cycling/walking and awareness when around traffic as part of assessment and rospa/brake have loads of safe cycling videos. buzzword bingo refers to work related road risk assessments and policies in fors, so expect this to be required at some point of you.
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Rank: Super forum user
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At 17 years old he can move out, get married, reproduce, join the army and drive. I don't think it's the job of the employer, either legally or morally, to teach this person how to walk or cycle safely outside of work. As somebody already posted aboiut mobile employees... "Travel time to and from work is not usually counted as working hours. However, travel as part of the employee's duties is." To me, that means that his working day starts when he gets in the van and ends when he gets out of it.
I would imagine most of us are busy enough keeping people safe at work without trying to micromanage the way they get to work!
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: Stuart Smiles i would say you have duty from house because, after an incident, you cant say accurately that demarcation point is and different at collection/drop off to walking to house.
Stuart, At my last employer we had several vans that would each pick up 5 or 6 guys from designated pickup points each morning and then drop them back there each evening. If one of our guys was knocked over by a car whilst walking to/from one of these pickup points, are you seriously suggesting that the employer would be legally and/or morally responsible for this? I'm sorry but that is ludicrous. As for issuing PPE for walking, discussing transport risk assessments, training people how to walk safely and putting them on safe cycling courses, these are working age people, not toddlers.
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Going by some of the replies, if this apprentice is walking to his collection point, he is considered working. So how many would RIDDOR report if injured/killed?
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: douglas.dick Going by some of the replies, if this apprentice is walking to his collection point, he is considered working. So how many would RIDDOR report if injured/killed?
How can walking to work possibly classed as being at work? If he's mobile then his work starts the second he gets in the van and ends when he gets out of it. If his job involved him walking to various locations (postman, leaflet distributor, door to door salesman) then fair enough, but this doesn't seem to be the case. He drives, or is driven, to these locations and therefore his working day starts when he gets into that van and ends when he gets back out of it at the end of the day. As per my last post, at my last place we had around 20-30 guys picked up in crew buses daily from half a dozen pick up points. If one of these guys was hit by a car walking to/from the pickup point, wouild you seriously consider that the employer is at fault? Edited by user 02 June 2017 13:32:35(UTC)
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Rank: Forum user
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Originally Posted by: Stern Originally Posted by: douglas.dick Going by some of the replies, if this apprentice is walking to his collection point, he is considered working. So how many would RIDDOR report if injured/killed?
How can walking to work possibly classed as being at work? If he's mobile then his work starts the second he gets in the van and ends when he gets out of it. If his job involved him walking to various locations (postman, leaflet distributor, door to door salesman) then fair enough, but this doesn't seem to be the case. He drives, or is driven, to these locations and therefore his working day starts when he gets into that van and ends when he gets back out of it at the end of the day. As per my last post, at my last place we had around 20-30 guys picked up in crew buses daily from half a dozen pick up points. If one of these guys was hit by a car walking to/from the pickup point, wouild you seriously consider that the employer is at fault?
Exactly as I said in posts #3 & #9, however some disagree and so it seems they would in fact complete a RIDDOR report if required in these circumstances. oh well
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: douglas.dick Originally Posted by: Stern Originally Posted by: douglas.dick Going by some of the replies, if this apprentice is walking to his collection point, he is considered working. So how many would RIDDOR report if injured/killed?
How can walking to work possibly classed as being at work? If he's mobile then his work starts the second he gets in the van and ends when he gets out of it. If his job involved him walking to various locations (postman, leaflet distributor, door to door salesman) then fair enough, but this doesn't seem to be the case. He drives, or is driven, to these locations and therefore his working day starts when he gets into that van and ends when he gets back out of it at the end of the day. As per my last post, at my last place we had around 20-30 guys picked up in crew buses daily from half a dozen pick up points. If one of these guys was hit by a car walking to/from the pickup point, wouild you seriously consider that the employer is at fault?
Exactly as I said in posts #3 & #9, however some disagree and so it seems they would in fact complete a RIDDOR report if required in these circumstances. oh well
Apologies, it seems we're both on the same page! As i said before, i'm busy all day keeping people safe at work. Would be nice to have enough free time to worry about what they do outside of work!!
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