Rank: Forum user 
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Hello everyone, I've decided to write this topic due to frustration with the CSCS Scheme. Currently I work within the construction industry where it is a requirement to have a CSCS or CPCS card to get on site but if you have say an excavator CPCS card then you don't also need a CSCS as they are the same scheme and the Clients that we work with are happy to accept one of the other.
I've recently decided that even though our Site Managers/Supervisors hold CPCS I would like them to also have the appropriate CSCS card for their Management Role Gold for the Supervisors and Black for the Managers. Each Manager holds the SMSTS and the Supervisors hold the SSSTS but I've been infomred today that unless they undertake an NVQ for their role they cannot apply for the CSCS card. Why do they make it so difficult, the SMSTS and SSSTS are CITB courses under the same scheme as CSCS. It frustrates me soo much, it just seems to be about money all the time and not what is practical for the safe operation of the worksite. What are your views on this? I'm really starting to lose faith in the CITB, I've had problems in the past with them myself where I wanted to apply for the Professionally Qualified Person Card as a result of my NEBOSH Diploma and the NVQ L6 in Construction Management but they said that they don't recognise NEBOSH or the NVQ L6 and I would need an NVQ L4 or L5.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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There's nothing wrong with the CSCS scheme in this respect, you are just misunderstanding how it works.
CSCS cards are a way to demonstrate your competency (qualifications). SSSTS/SMSTS are NOT qualifications, they are H&S training courses which must be renewed. Simply doing a 5 day Site Manager H&S course does not make you a competent site manager. Years ago I worked as a labourer, was offered a job as a trainee PM. First thing i had to do was pass my SMSTS, which i did. Would you consider a labourer with 0 days experience managing sites a competent site manager just becasue he'd passed a 5 day course? Of course not. Achiving the level 6 NVQ required for a black card can easily take more than a year and requires the learner to demonstrate competency in numberous areas including...
- Develop and maintain good working relationships
- Allocating work and checking people’s performance in the workplace
- Identifying and enabling learning opportunities for given work teams in the workplace
- Contributing to the identification of work teams in the workplace
- Establishing, implementing and maintaining systems for managing health, safety and welfare in the workplace
- Establishing, controlling and monitoring environmental factors and sustainability in the workplace
- Evaluating and selecting work methods to meet project or operational requirements in the workplace
- Planning the preparation of the site for the project or operation in the workplace
- Monitoring construction related project activities in the workplace
- Ensuring that work activities and resources meet project work requirements in the workplace
- Identifying, allocating and planning the deployment and use of plant, equipment or machinery in the workplace
- Organising, controlling and monitoring supplies of materials in the workplace
- Establishing and monitoring communication systems and organisational procedures in the workplace
- Controlling project progress against agreed quality standards in the workplace
- Establishing project dimensional control criteria in the workplace
- Controlling project progress against agreed programmes in the workplace
- Controlling project quantities and costs in the workplace
- Evaluating feedback information and recommending improvements in the workplace
- Managing personal development in a construction-related workplace
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 1 user thanked Stern for this useful post.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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I agree wholehartedly with Stern in his summing up of the CSCS scheme. The Cards show the actual Qualifications and not the Training that you've had. I have a NVQ level 6 and a black card, However with my new level 7 qualfication i would have to get a white Academically Qualified person card costing another £30 and Pass my Managers and Professionals CSCS test again, it just wasn't worth it for me as my black card still has until 2021 before it runs out.
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Rank: Super forum user
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The real problem is that the CSCS card has been put into service to do something that it was not designed to do. It was, and still is, a skill card and progression/award was directed towards achieving a particular level of TRADE skill, NOT H&S competence. Unfortunately CITB spotted a chance to get construction companies to use the card to certify H&S competence and so a magic merry go round was formed. Aided and abetted by the HSE.
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Rank: Super forum user
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Originally Posted by: boblewis  The real problem is that the CSCS card has been put into service to do something that it was not designed to do. It was, and still is, a skill card and progression/award was directed towards achieving a particular level of TRADE skill, NOT H&S competence. Unfortunately CITB spotted a chance to get construction companies to use the card to certify H&S competence and so a magic merry go round was formed. Aided and abetted by the HSE.
Bob,
In my experience the only people who see CSCS cards as being a sign of H&S competence are those who misunderstand what the cards are for (people such as the OP of this thread). Many years ago I had an electrician try to get onto site with a UKPIA (petrol station safety) card who became very aggessive when told it wasn't appropriate. He angrily pointed out that he had to do 2 days training to get his UKPIA card and that you only have to do a quick 20min test for a CSCS card. Therefore, his card was superior, i was (in his words) "a f*****g idiot who didn't know what he was on about" and he could not understand why we were being such jobsworths.
When i explained to him what CSCS cards were actually for (a way for him to prove he's a qualified electrician rather than simply a "H&S card") the penny finally dropped and his office emailed over a copy of his CSCS (well, ECS) card. CSCS is, was and always will be a way for people to easily demonstrate their qualifications (aka "skills") when moving from site to site. Of course there is a close correlation between someone's competence and their H&S performance (someone who is competent will likely have less accidents than someone who is not!) but again, the scheme was always designed to help avoid the need to carry round certifcates with you!
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1 user thanked Stern for this useful post.
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Rank: Forum user
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Where does a company like the one I work for stand? We carry out works on a construction site that do not legally require a qualification. Every year we have to hire temporary staff, put them through CSCS and carry out in house training for them to install our IT equipment. It isn't feasible to have them all on NVQ's or other lengthy courses, as they won't be employed by us for longer than 6 months. We are now looking at not being able to get on a construction site and I'm not sure where to turn with this. We install into student sites, so the majority of our installation work is carried out over July/August/September.
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Rank: Forum user 
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Originally Posted by: Stern Originally Posted by: boblewis The real problem is that the CSCS card has been put into service to do something that it was not designed to do. It was, and still is, a skill card and progression/award was directed towards achieving a particular level of TRADE skill, NOT H&S competence. Unfortunately CITB spotted a chance to get construction companies to use the card to certify H&S competence and so a magic merry go round was formed. Aided and abetted by the HSE.
Bob,
In my experience the only people who see CSCS cards as being a sign of H&S competence are those who misunderstand what the cards are for (people such as the OP of this thread). Many years ago I had an electrician try to get onto site with a UKPIA (petrol station safety) card who became very aggessive when told it wasn't appropriate. He angrily pointed out that he had to do 2 days training to get his UKPIA card and that you only have to do a quick 20min test for a CSCS card. Therefore, his card was superior, i was (in his words) "a f*****g idiot who didn't know what he was on about" and he could not understand why we were being such jobsworths.
When i explained to him what CSCS cards were actually for (a way for him to prove he's a qualified electrician rather than simply a "H&S card") the penny finally dropped and his office emailed over a copy of his CSCS (well, ECS) card. CSCS is, was and always will be a way for people to easily demonstrate their qualifications (aka "skills") when moving from site to site. Of course there is a close correlation between someone's competence and their H&S performance (someone who is competent will likely have less accidents than someone who is not!) but again, the scheme was always designed to help avoid the need to carry round certifcates with you!
A lot of people see the CSCS scheme as an expensive tick box exercise that is being rammed down people's throats as mandatory for sites.
It is difficult to argue the positives in light of what has been exposed and what most of us will have seen over the years with the rigmarole of changes & 'improvements' and the sometimes farcical NVQ fiasco.
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Originally Posted by: Stern In my experience the only people who see CSCS cards as being a sign of H&S competence are those who misunderstand what the cards are for (people such as the OP of this thread).
The problem is that the people who misunderstand what the cards are for includes the people that write the rules about who is allowed on site.
If it was as you optimistically set out, I'd be perfectly happy - none of our people would have any need for any CSCS card, becasue we don't employ any tradesmen. Possibly one or two of our people have construction trade qualifications, but if they do, that's not what they are employed by us for. However we do need to go onto construction sites, and we do face contractors who have systems that say everyone coming onto site must have a CSCS card. Where it leaves us is trying to jump through every narrower hoops to satisfy contractor's rules for no good reason (other than that if we don't satisfy their arbitrary rules, we can't do the job they want us to do).
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Rank: Super forum user 
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Perhaps the question should be - is CSCS/CPCS fit for purpose? I think the CITB need to start smelling the coffee...
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