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nip  
#1 Posted : 14 June 2017 17:33:07(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
nip

I work for a fairly small to medium sized engineering comoany my employer has decided that the secretary is to be responsible for H/S and has an IOSH managing safely accreditation is this enough to be deemed "competant" or does he require the use of my NEBOSH general certificate as he no longer wants to use outside agencies. Any advise would be appreciated as I would hate to see anyone to be out of their depth if something were to go wrong
nip  
#2 Posted : 14 June 2017 23:06:06(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
nip

Please help me on this subject as I am struggling to find what I need to know online
Stuart Smiles  
#3 Posted : 15 June 2017 01:03:54(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Stuart Smiles

perhaps a look at hsg65 "management of health and safety" would be a good place to start about what you and your boss need. 

there is a specific guide for engineering workshops.- hsg 129

your manging director needs to decide what is required for the organisation's needs and policies and procedures with access to competent advice, guidance, and needs to understand why it's important. 

perhaps he should chat with a lawyer, hr people or accountant & trusted advisors he has access to.

he could consult the iod leadership info - hse microsite http://www.hse.gov.uk/leadership/about.htm 

perhaps the way in which messages are being communicated aren't getting understood by one another and alternative assistance or an external perspective could help facilitate meetings/ discussions, or different advisors to build a new relationship with. 

nip  
#4 Posted : 15 June 2017 04:43:44(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
nip

Thank you for that advice but that doesn't directly help with answering my question as I understand that the IOSH Managing Safely is a worldwide recognised course and a good starting point into becoming a Health and Safety practicioner, but the simple fact that the secretary in question couldn't grasp the concept that a "tool box talk" should be delivered in person and thought it was ok to send out a bunch of emails to all employees and then proceeded to threaten disciplinary aaction if people didn't send a confirmation email that they had read it. Correct me if I'm wrong but this wouldn't be proof enough that employee's have understood said tbt's. Which brings me back round to the question of whether or not her IOSH accreditation would be deemed enough for her to take on the role of H/S manger or whether it is just a lack of her personal understanding of what is required compounded with my employer's lack of H/S knowledge,
RayRapp  
#5 Posted : 15 June 2017 08:33:52(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
RayRapp

I'm not going to sit on the fence - a IOSH Managing Safely accreditation is not enough to deem someone competent to be the lead person for health and safety in an engineering environment. A NEBOSH Cert may not be enough, depending on the knowledge and experience of the person in my opinion.

dazlalley  
#6 Posted : 15 June 2017 08:46:35(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
dazlalley

Hi,

The question you have will be prone to subjective answers, as there isn’t a specific direct answer to your question, it will become a matter of opinion once all other consideration factors have been reviewed.

I would class a competent person as someone with the relevant knowledge, training & experience to carry out their task effectively. Just because someone has an IOSH certificate dose not necessary mean that they automatically become competent.

 IOSH managing safely will only provide a person with a generic vocational qualification but won’t provide any experience or subject specific knowledge to the sector they are working in.

From what you have described it seems that your employer is trying to “tick a box” in relation to managing H&S. As any H&S professional knows a more holistic approach to managing H&S required in order to promote a positive H&S culture within.

Ultimately your employer will have to take a risk based approach when deciding who to allocate H&S responsibilities to and additional resources may be required to “close the gap” in order for a person to be deemed competent.

O'Donnell54548  
#7 Posted : 15 June 2017 08:55:04(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
O'Donnell54548

I agree with RayRap, competence cannot be measured purely through an academic qualification. You need to explain to your Employer that though they can delegate their duties, they cannot delegate their responsibilities. The Employer needs to ensure whoever they appoint under Regulation 7 of the Management Regulations has the necessary skills, knowledge and experience.  

aud  
#8 Posted : 15 June 2017 09:12:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
aud

Ray is spot on. IOSH Managing Safely is a not a starting point to becoming a H&S practitioner, and is not (I hope) marketed as such. It is an 'awareness' course only, and (personal opinion) not a very good one at that. Even the NEBOSH Certificate was originally marketed as only for managers, not as a career ladder stage for practitioners.

Competency is a combination of experience, knowledge and skill. Your intuition seems correct that the situation you cite is not adequate, but there is no clear and definitive statement 'for this work then x qualification is needed'. Safety is not a mere administrative function, box ticking, systemised etc. Sounds like you are keen to make a pitch for the role?

hilary  
#9 Posted : 15 June 2017 10:44:07(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

Below is a link to an HSE commissioned report entitled:

"Benchmarking the competent person in the manufacturing and engineering sectors"

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrhtm/rr121.htm

in which they lay out exactly what they feel to be competent in your working environment.  I hope this clarifies the situation for you.

thanks 1 user thanked hilary for this useful post.
aud on 15/06/2017(UTC)
MaxPayne  
#10 Posted : 15 June 2017 11:01:35(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
MaxPayne

Agreed; it's also about knowing and understanding your own level of competence in that position.

Originally Posted by: RayRapp Go to Quoted Post

I'm not going to sit on the fence - a IOSH Managing Safely accreditation is not enough to deem someone competent to be the lead person for health and safety in an engineering environment. A NEBOSH Cert may not be enough, depending on the knowledge and experience of the person in my opinion.

Bigmac1  
#11 Posted : 15 June 2017 12:46:39(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Bigmac1

I cant believe what I am reading. OMG

Competence isnt something you learn its something you earn, Skills, Knowledge, Experience and Training comes to mind. Leadership skills, Mangement skills, and IOSH managing safely is not a qualification for Safety professionals.

Originally Posted by: nip Go to Quoted Post
Thank you for that advice but that doesn't directly help with answering my question as I understand that the IOSH Managing Safely is a worldwide recognised course and a good starting point into becoming a Health and Safety practicioner, but the simple fact that the secretary in question couldn't grasp the concept that a "tool box talk" should be delivered in person and thought it was ok to send out a bunch of emails to all employees and then proceeded to threaten disciplinary aaction if people didn't send a confirmation email that they had read it. Correct me if I'm wrong but this wouldn't be proof enough that employee's have understood said tbt's. Which brings me back round to the question of whether or not her IOSH accreditation would be deemed enough for her to take on the role of H/S manger or whether it is just a lack of her personal understanding of what is required compounded with my employer's lack of H/S knowledge,

Ron Hunter  
#12 Posted : 15 June 2017 13:16:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ron Hunter

Going back to the OP:

It is perfectly right and proper for the employer to appoint a director (in your case the company secretary) with specific responsibility for health and safety compliance within the organisation - but that doesn't necessarily make him the "competent person" for the purposes of the Regulations.

You may need to clarify this with your employer. The "old" health and safety poster used to require competent persons to be specifically identified, the new one does not.

It is for the employer to be satisfied as to his arrangements for competent persons, and what he requires will be dependent on the nature of risks in the business, He may decide to appoint external consultants. Occupational Health Providers also count as part of the compliment of "sufficient competent persons" as do services offered by Insurers etc.

Mr.Flibble2.0  
#13 Posted : 15 June 2017 13:33:45(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Mr.Flibble2.0

Of course you not need any external safety qualification to be a competent safety person if competence can be gained another way (experience, knoweledge of the job, internal training etc).

nip  
#14 Posted : 15 June 2017 19:07:28(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
nip

Thank you all for your advise however it has become apparent that my employer has little to no interest in me trying to help both him and his secetary so I have decided the best thing I can do is to sit back and hope he has a change of heart when his secetary realises she's taken on more than she can handle
pete48  
#15 Posted : 15 June 2017 21:00:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

What exactly does " responsible for H&S" mean in your context? I agree with my esteemed colleagues that IOSH Managing Safely is really the base minimum and provides nothing more than a basic understanding. However, that does not mean it is inappropriate for that person to be given some level of responsibility for H&S. Things like making sure there is a policy, organsistion and arrangements system in place but not being expected to populate the detail. That sort of role is often presented to the staff, in smaller enterprises, as 'leading' on H&S whereas in fact it usually means in more of a co-ordination than management role.

The technical safety comes from technically qualified people in the company NOT the person "responsible for H&S". (e.g. a quailifed engineer would obviously be competent in technical matters such as machinery safety; a relevant grade of electrical competence and so on)

As an aside, I see nothing wrong with tool box 'talks' being something other than face to face--in the right context and environment. 

Stuart Smiles  
#16 Posted : 16 June 2017 01:14:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Stuart Smiles

I referenced the documents so that it can be put under the nose of the md and they can look at the arrangements and competence that they believe will be required, in addition to the leading guide, and to discuss with colleagues to ask what do you do in your organisation. 

In terms of what the organisation needs to do, that is up to the organisation and it's management, and that was why I took the approach of issue the documents to the top people. 

they need to evaluate what are the appropriate things to do, and they may need nudges to evaluate what is important, however as stated, perhaps the best messenger is the guidance and a meeting with people within their peer group. the person tasked can also evaluate if they feel capable of the requirements apparently being placed upon them, the access to support, assistance, and guidance. 

what does the policy say about it? how will it be done, communicated, and who are the people named within it, can they realistically get the support information, access etc that they need. 

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