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Ros7  
#1 Posted : 15 February 2018 20:20:50(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Ros7

Hi,

Me again :)

One of our lovely leadership team has a son who is 13 yrs old and she has decided that he can do work experience in the warehouse!

As we currently don't employ anyone under 18 yrs of age I suggested to her that it would be against regulations, but she is not happy with my answer as sh said she will be with him so it will be ok!

Am I right in thinking that legally this is a no no?

Thanks 

Ros.

Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 15 February 2018 21:13:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

and the insurers opinion? one of the reasons we banned drivers mates during school holidays was a limitation that even apprentices were 16+ Not "elf n safety" but the reality that the presence of a minor invalidated the insurance cover of everyone on site. Your problem will be convincing someone who is ignorant of all due considerations and has their own agenda. Feel free to remind them the current consultation is suggesting Gross Negligence Manslaughter will attract a maximum tariff of 18 years as opposed to the current 2 years. There is also a recent case against Violia who employed a mentally immature person who ended up being struck by a reversing vehicle. A 13 year old is in my opinion as a parent wholly imature to be present in a work place - even in an office doing photo copying
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Ros7 on 15/02/2018(UTC), Ros7 on 15/02/2018(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 15 February 2018 21:13:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

and the insurers opinion? one of the reasons we banned drivers mates during school holidays was a limitation that even apprentices were 16+ Not "elf n safety" but the reality that the presence of a minor invalidated the insurance cover of everyone on site. Your problem will be convincing someone who is ignorant of all due considerations and has their own agenda. Feel free to remind them the current consultation is suggesting Gross Negligence Manslaughter will attract a maximum tariff of 18 years as opposed to the current 2 years. There is also a recent case against Violia who employed a mentally immature person who ended up being struck by a reversing vehicle. A 13 year old is in my opinion as a parent wholly imature to be present in a work place - even in an office doing photo copying
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Ros7 on 15/02/2018(UTC), Ros7 on 15/02/2018(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#4 Posted : 15 February 2018 22:44:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

As I finished the post I can already hear the questions

So "when I was a lad" you could legally leave school at 15 (Easter term) without taking any of the new fangled CSE exams, instead you started an apprenticeship if you were lucky normally in the September at the start of the next education year - this was the situation when I entered employment. Wind forward a generation and my son was the first wave expected to stay in full time education until 18 years of age.

Problem is that as the people behind the scenes grow up understanding their own unique circumstances they fail to comprehend what may have gone before and write their norms in to the rules - so if  I were an employer insurer/underwriter is it unreasonable I expect within current education law that anyone entering the workplace woud now be 18+?

A not disimilar situation exists with ID (the photo driving licence is neraly twenty years old - BIG HINT for early adopters it is time to update your photo again) "no the pink/green paper is my driving licence - your company policy fails to understand it remains a legal document even without a photograph"

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Roundtuit  
#5 Posted : 15 February 2018 22:44:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

As I finished the post I can already hear the questions

So "when I was a lad" you could legally leave school at 15 (Easter term) without taking any of the new fangled CSE exams, instead you started an apprenticeship if you were lucky normally in the September at the start of the next education year - this was the situation when I entered employment. Wind forward a generation and my son was the first wave expected to stay in full time education until 18 years of age.

Problem is that as the people behind the scenes grow up understanding their own unique circumstances they fail to comprehend what may have gone before and write their norms in to the rules - so if  I were an employer insurer/underwriter is it unreasonable I expect within current education law that anyone entering the workplace woud now be 18+?

A not disimilar situation exists with ID (the photo driving licence is neraly twenty years old - BIG HINT for early adopters it is time to update your photo again) "no the pink/green paper is my driving licence - your company policy fails to understand it remains a legal document even without a photograph"

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC), Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
Charlie Brown  
#6 Posted : 15 February 2018 22:54:10(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Charlie Brown

The link below may help you with this but I would also be asking the insurers if the policy covers work experience students who are considered to be children at this age. Alternatively, the school where the child attends may have this covered by their insurers but you will want proof.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/youngpeople/law/index.htm

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
Brian Campbell  
#7 Posted : 16 February 2018 08:41:30(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Brian Campbell

Sounds more like a ploy to not pay for day care than actual work experience.  And why does a 13 year old need work experience??  No No and No

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
WatsonD  
#8 Posted : 16 February 2018 09:19:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

Contrary to previous posters, I see no reason why a child of that age cannot get some experience of the world of work. I find it quite patronising to state a child would be incapable, without knowing the individual.

If we do not offer them the opportunity, how will they ever grow and develop? Rather lets wait till they are 18 and they will automatically be mature enough(?)!

It is lazy H&S in my opinion to create blanket bans and is borderline discrimination based purely on individual prejudice, from those who believe the next generation are inferior to the one before. Those same people who themselve relied on the good grace, nuturing and support to help them to make that transistion into the workplace. I hope my children do not become victim to these people as they attempt to grow and mature into adults.

It is however, an undertaking for you as the employer, as you will need to closely supervise the child and ensure you are only exposing them to apprpriate woks.

From my experience in an early H&S role of facilitating WEX for schools and employers, just inform your insurance company what you are doing, they will not have an issue with this.

Edited by user 16 February 2018 11:09:03(UTC)  | Reason: Spelling mistake

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC), andrewcl on 20/02/2018(UTC)
Invictus  
#9 Posted : 16 February 2018 09:35:37(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Invictus

I agree with Watson, but is it about the YP or is it that no one wants to supervise him. Would we have a problem with a YP having a paper round, do we go and check the weight of the bag to enaure manual handling, do we get up on dark mornings to go with them to ensure safety etc.

There was a post about giving H&S talks in schools to help prepare working is the best way to learn as long as they are supervised correctly and a R/A has been completed to state what jobs they can and cannot do.

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
Andrew W Walker  
#10 Posted : 16 February 2018 09:46:44(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Andrew W Walker

We have had a YP here for 2 weeks- part of it was working in the warehouse. He was 14 and a half. Our insurers were fine with it.

As previously stated- RA and supervision.

His parting words were 'I don't want to be doing THAT'. Experience it was, good it wasn't.

I think its a great idea to give them some experience of working life.

Andy

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
biker1  
#11 Posted : 16 February 2018 09:47:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
biker1

Or is it a case of taking junior into work to see what mommy does and how clever she is, or am I just cynical? (it has been known).

Judging from the behaviour of so many kids in supermarkets these days, I wouldn't let them anywhere near a warehouse. However, this particular young person may be quite mature and sensible, but why not engage them in the office, where the risks are a lot lower and easier to control?

It would be an interesting situation if the individual got injured. Is their mother going to sue her employer?

Check with your insurance company.

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
hilary  
#12 Posted : 16 February 2018 10:08:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
hilary

Children under 14 are banned from our shop floor for any reason.  I consider with the machinery, vehicles and stock movements (including rack climbing and other fun pursuits) that they are simply too immature and unworldly at that age to be trusted.

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
Charlie Brown  
#13 Posted : 16 February 2018 10:10:50(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Charlie Brown

I do in fact agree with you WatsonD and I have actually had a work experience yp on site for a week under the watchful care of his dad at the age of 14. Worked out fine but regarding insurance, ours did not cover the child but his school did which in that instance was all good. Just need to be aware is all. Also, the HSE guide is what I used at the time and found it helpful which is why I posted it. 
Originally Posted by: WatsonD Go to Quoted Post

Contrary to previous posters, I see no reason why a child of that age cannot get some experience of the world of work. I find it quite patronising to state a child would be incapable, without knowing the individual.

If we do not offer them the opportunity, how will they ever grow and develop? Rather lets wait till they are 18 and they will automatically be mature enough(?)!

It is lazy H&S in my opinion to create blanket bans and is borderline discrimination based purely on individual prejudice, form those who beleive the next generation are inferior to the one before. Those same people who themselve relied on the good grace, nuturing and support to help them to make that transistion into the workplace. I hope my children do not become victim to these people as they attempt to grow and mature into adults.

It is however, an undertaking for you as the employer, as you will need to closely supervise the child and ensure you are only exposing them to apprpriate woks.

From my experience in an early H&S role of facilitating WEX for schools and employers, just inform your insurance company what you are doing, they will not have an issue with this.

Edited by user 16 February 2018 10:13:45(UTC)  | Reason: spelling

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WatsonD  
#14 Posted : 16 February 2018 11:04:56(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

Originally Posted by: Charlie Brown Go to Quoted Post
I do in fact agree with you WatsonD and I have actually had a work experience yp on site for a week under the watchful care of his dad at the age of 14. Worked out fine but regarding insurance, ours did not cover the child but his school did which in that instance was all good. Just need to be aware is all. Also, the HSE guide is what I used at the time and found it helpful which is why I posted it. 

Apologies Charlie as it was not your post I was referring to.

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
Charlie Brown  
#15 Posted : 16 February 2018 11:13:42(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Charlie Brown

No worries, I didn't think you possibly could :)
Originally Posted by: WatsonD Go to Quoted Post

Originally Posted by: Charlie Brown Go to Quoted Post
I do in fact agree with you WatsonD and I have actually had a work experience yp on site for a week under the watchful care of his dad at the age of 14. Worked out fine but regarding insurance, ours did not cover the child but his school did which in that instance was all good. Just need to be aware is all. Also, the HSE guide is what I used at the time and found it helpful which is why I posted it. 

Apologies Charlie as it was not your post I was referring to.

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
Hsquared14  
#16 Posted : 16 February 2018 12:54:03(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

https://www.gov.uk/child-employment/restrictions-on-child-employment

Please read all the information on this website.  I would say for a day like bring your son/daughter to work day but not during school holidays for full weeks.  I think a 13year old in a warehouse would be a nightmare, trying to keep them off the MHE, stop them climbing the racking etc. 

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
madihaawan  
#17 Posted : 16 February 2018 13:08:35(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
madihaawan

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
WatsonD  
#18 Posted : 16 February 2018 14:29:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

Originally Posted by: Hsquared14 Go to Quoted Post

https://www.gov.uk/child-employment/restrictions-on-child-employment

Please read all the information on this website.  I would say for a day like bring your son/daughter to work day but not during school holidays for full weeks.  I think a 13year old in a warehouse would be a nightmare, trying to keep them off the MHE, stop them climbing the racking etc. 

I would imagine that to be the behaviour of a 3 year old, but not a 13 year-old. Also, I don't think anyone would suggest to stick him in the warehouse and leave him on his own.

Some of the responses on here are suggesting that all under 18 year-olds are feral.

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#19 Posted : 16 February 2018 15:03:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

As are many over 18 years of age

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Roundtuit  
#20 Posted : 16 February 2018 15:03:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

As are many over 18 years of age

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Hsquared14  
#21 Posted : 16 February 2018 15:12:20(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

WatsonD - have you ever stood outside a school at chucking out time?  Trust me you wouldn't want to be there.  We have a secondary school directly opposite our site and there is no way on God's good earth I would allow one of them through the gate let alone inside the warehouse!!!

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
WatsonD  
#22 Posted : 16 February 2018 16:01:36(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
WatsonD

Originally Posted by: Hsquared14 Go to Quoted Post

WatsonD - have you ever stood outside a school at chucking out time?  Trust me you wouldn't want to be there.  We have a secondary school directly opposite our site and there is no way on God's good earth I would allow one of them through the gate let alone inside the warehouse!!!

Yes, many times, and I also worked in a FE College for over ten years and know there is a great divide between teenager acting up to their peers and those in unfamiliar surroundings. I learnt that 14 year-olds can be very mature and 23 year-olds quite childish. So I don't discrminate on age group.

One of the roles I held in my time at the college was to coordinate WEX placements for year 10 into workplaces. We covered many workplaces , from farms and stables to warehouses, shops, resaurants. Airports, police stations, fire station and hospitals. Even a firework display company.

I also taught apprentices in classroom and visited them as an NVQ assessor onsite. Their behaviour in a 'pack' in the classroom with their peers was far removed from their behaviour as individuals in the workplace.

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC), andrewcl on 20/02/2018(UTC)
pete48  
#23 Posted : 16 February 2018 16:28:08(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

As D Watson implies a work experience placement formally agreed with the school can allow such a placement. Such placements are not covered by the child employment rules/regs. Although the student is regarded as an employee for the duration they must not be paid any wages or salary during the placement.

The placement would need to be subject to a review of the workplace risk assessment to identify any additional controls and , of course, an employer may conclude that it is not acceptable to control those risks adequately enough to allow the placement. However, there is plenty of experience and evidence to suggest it is possible for such placement to be successfull. As to insurance, again as long as this is a work experience placement  as part of the education process, then the employers ELI covers the student whilst on placement. (ABI confirmed position)

So, as long as this a formal WEX placement via the school programme then the fact that it is a warehouse is not a reason to prohibit it. I would check back with the parent and the school to ensure this is a placement under the Work Experience in key stage 4 process. If so, try to make it work.

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Ros7 on 18/02/2018(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#24 Posted : 17 February 2018 11:02:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I like AK's avatar and its strap line "answer the question" So back to the OP - one of the leadership team decided That doesnt read as a formal agreement between a work place and an educational establishment so whilst there are valid comments regarding work place experience with the information provided they are not relevant Had it read one of the leadership has asked me to liaise with their sons school to set up a work experience programme comments would be justified
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Roundtuit  
#25 Posted : 17 February 2018 11:02:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

I like AK's avatar and its strap line "answer the question" So back to the OP - one of the leadership team decided That doesnt read as a formal agreement between a work place and an educational establishment so whilst there are valid comments regarding work place experience with the information provided they are not relevant Had it read one of the leadership has asked me to liaise with their sons school to set up a work experience programme comments would be justified
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pete48  
#26 Posted : 18 February 2018 16:18:24(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

To respond to the criticism about mentioning WEX.

Here is the authoritative guidance on the subject of employing children. It is a much better document than the one linked earlier.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/193326/Child_employment09.pdf

One of the prohibited activities is  "transport of passengers or goods, including handling goods in a warehouse".Therefore, unless it is authorised work experience then it will not be permitted by the local bye laws. So the anawer in that case is 'yes it is prohibited by law'.

However, I suggest that  the O.P. reads through the document in order to make the best decision for both the child concerned and the business. The general prohibitions are in section 6 but section 10 outlines how these rules can be modified.

I dont consider it appropriate to discount the possibility that this is, in fact, WEX when offering advice based on the O.P. question. To do so might prevent a perfectly acceptable experience for a child. 

Edited by user 18 February 2018 16:19:09(UTC)  | Reason: corrected typo

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Ros7  
#27 Posted : 18 February 2018 16:20:24(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
Ros7

Hi All,

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for their valid opinion and for the wealth of informtion provided.

Didn't think i'd start such a debate with this post :)

I'm going to speak to our insurers on Monday and go from there....

Thanks again,

Ros.

pete48  
#28 Posted : 18 February 2018 16:36:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
pete48

Ros, you have private mail.

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