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swilson1@companieshouse.gov.uk  
#1 Posted : 11 June 2018 13:41:33(UTC)
Rank: New forum user
swilson1@companieshouse.gov.uk

I was wondering if someone could help me?

A member of staff is due to go on a training course in a local hotel for 2 days. The staff member will be driving there and back both days.The hotel is charging a fee for parking.

Our payroll department have refused to pay for the parking and said they cant take their own car as the dont have business Insurance.

My understanding is the staff member will be driving to and from the hotel as their place of work for 2 days, they are driving the same distance as to their normal place of work and will not be claiming petrol.

Should the employer be preventing theindividual from taking their car?

Many thanks

A Kurdziel  
#2 Posted : 11 June 2018 14:07:13(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
A Kurdziel

This is a “Policy Thing” which means it is up to the participants to decide how they want to play it and there is no hard and fast rule.

The driver’s personal insurance might cover business travel it might not. It might include “reasonable” business travel but not taking the car across the Darien Gap. Where driving to and from a local hotel comes into it, depends on what it says on the small print of the driver’s insurance policy. Someone will have to read it.

It could be that the company has been stung in the past and they decided not to allow the use of private cars for business purposes, which is legitimate. Whether insisting that people use a hire car works out cheaper than providing mileage and paying for parking is entirely a company decision.

stuart46  
#3 Posted : 11 June 2018 14:57:13(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
stuart46

I agree, the driver's insurance cover needs to be clarified. Should they be involved in accident on what is basically a work journey, to a place of work other than the usual place of work, and it turns out there is no cover for business use, then the company could end up on a sticky wicket having allowed an uninsured driver to carry out a business journey. Check out the insurance or get a hire/pool car instead.

Elfin Davy 09  
#4 Posted : 11 June 2018 16:11:28(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Elfin Davy 09

Is the employer sending the employee on the training course, or is it something the employee has organised personally (and simply requested time off to attend) ?

As others have said, the car/insurance is a policy thing (best remedied by providing the employee with a pool car), but - if sent by the employer - the parking cost is a legitimate "out of pocket" business expense, and the fees should be met by the company.

If however it's an employee arranged course, then all bets are off (both in terms of the insurance and parking costs) as it would be covered by his private car insurance (because it would be personal use as opposed to business use).

However, without knowing the full facts of the booking, we're all making assumptions I suspect...

thanks 1 user thanked Elfin Davy 09 for this useful post.
Charlie Brown on 11/06/2018(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#5 Posted : 11 June 2018 16:15:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

People need to carefully read motor insurance policies - what was once a free inclusion is now a paid exemption e.g. the old SDP (social, domestic and pleasure) has morphed and quite often limits the commute on a non-business policy to a single place (location) of work.

Some on the other hand can be fortunate without knowing it having opted for the cheapest quote and getting x,000 miles business cover included.

Roundtuit  
#6 Posted : 11 June 2018 16:15:32(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

People need to carefully read motor insurance policies - what was once a free inclusion is now a paid exemption e.g. the old SDP (social, domestic and pleasure) has morphed and quite often limits the commute on a non-business policy to a single place (location) of work.

Some on the other hand can be fortunate without knowing it having opted for the cheapest quote and getting x,000 miles business cover included.

Charlie Brown  
#7 Posted : 11 June 2018 18:39:48(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Charlie Brown

I looked into this a couple of years ago and can categorically state that if the training was initiated by the employer the employees insurance must include business use (which a lot of insurers do not charge extra for).

If the employee wants to upgrade their insurance to include business use then no problem but if not then they will be uninsured if they drive their own vehicle to the training venue if the training was initiated by the company.

As far as the parking fees go, if it is a company sponsored training venue then the company should pay or the employee is well within their rights to decline to attend.

Roundtuit  
#8 Posted : 11 June 2018 19:32:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

And then we drift in to the nightmare of Grey Fleet - if they "upgrade" their insurance and there is an "adninistration fee" is this also a legitimate business expense?

Comes back to what is the company policy? Most "Grey Fleets" require employees to submit Licence, MOT (when applicable) & business insurance cover details to obtain mileage payment for business miles.

The enlightened ensure business mileage is not conducted in uninsured private vehicles - perhaps this is where your payroll is coming from just miss-communicating company policy

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Charlie Brown on 11/06/2018(UTC), JohnW on 15/06/2018(UTC), Charlie Brown on 11/06/2018(UTC), JohnW on 15/06/2018(UTC)
Roundtuit  
#9 Posted : 11 June 2018 19:32:31(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

And then we drift in to the nightmare of Grey Fleet - if they "upgrade" their insurance and there is an "adninistration fee" is this also a legitimate business expense?

Comes back to what is the company policy? Most "Grey Fleets" require employees to submit Licence, MOT (when applicable) & business insurance cover details to obtain mileage payment for business miles.

The enlightened ensure business mileage is not conducted in uninsured private vehicles - perhaps this is where your payroll is coming from just miss-communicating company policy

thanks 4 users thanked Roundtuit for this useful post.
Charlie Brown on 11/06/2018(UTC), JohnW on 15/06/2018(UTC), Charlie Brown on 11/06/2018(UTC), JohnW on 15/06/2018(UTC)
JohnW  
#10 Posted : 15 June 2018 08:43:51(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
JohnW

Yes, the driver must check his own motor insurance policy, phone the provider and upgrade it to include business use and also commute use if that's not covered. Then look at the company policy and explain to the payroll.

I was made aware recently of a family member who had an accident driving to work, he had not ticked Commute Use when applying for his motor insurance. They would not pay up for his damage. Worse than that, they said his insurance application had been 'fraudulent' so they upped his premium from £430 p.a. to £7000 (thousand) per annum. He has tried to get insured elsewhere but insurers share 'fraudulent' driver information......

Edited by user 15 June 2018 08:45:06(UTC)  | Reason: typos

thanks 1 user thanked JohnW for this useful post.
nic168 on 15/06/2018(UTC)
nic168  
#11 Posted : 15 June 2018 10:22:19(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
nic168

 Can any give a steer to some good guidance for employers on grey fleet use? My current employers seem to have abot of a blind spot on this and I am finding it a little difficult to explain my concern in simple terms.

The attitude seems to be its up to the employee, no consideration of time pressures, stressful workload, terrrible roads, insurance or even if they have a license!

Elfin Davy 09  
#12 Posted : 15 June 2018 10:50:12(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Elfin Davy 09

nic168

RoSPA have a good guide, link below:

https://www.rospa.com/rospaweb/docs/advice-services/road-safety/employers/work-own-vehicles.pdf

Edited by user 15 June 2018 11:41:00(UTC)  | Reason: Not specified

Roundtuit  
#13 Posted : 15 June 2018 13:07:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.fleetnews.co...t-management/grey-fleet/ Quite a number of articles on the matter of Grey Fleet
Roundtuit  
#14 Posted : 15 June 2018 13:07:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

https://www.fleetnews.co...t-management/grey-fleet/ Quite a number of articles on the matter of Grey Fleet
Tigers  
#15 Posted : 18 June 2018 14:52:05(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
Tigers

This may be where the question actually started, I used this case to aid my case:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11958031/Crime-tsar-Ann-Barnes-may-have-committed-an-offence-of-driving-without-insurance.html

Hsquared14  
#16 Posted : 18 June 2018 14:53:18(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

Hi all - I am in the process of renewing my car insurance and the definitions have now changed since the last time I renewed.  You now have the standard Social, Domestic and Pleasure (SDP) plus commuting to a single place of work, and a further definition of SDP, Commuting to a single location and Business Use, the help box defines business use as being even occasional use to go to a different location other than your single commuting location and actually quotes the example of someone attending a training course as needing business cover.  The quote forms also ask you to estimate how much business mileage you are likely to do in a year.   So it looks like your HR dept are right as the definitions of vehicle use for insurance purposes has changed and someone wanting to use their own car to travel to a course location will need business cover. 

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