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confined  
#1 Posted : 10 July 2018 14:30:31(UTC)
Rank: Forum user
confined

Hi All
I visited a site today where we have 3 bulk calor containers ( signage etc look all ok) But next to these was a locked metal cage storing some small calor gas containers and some oxygen cylinders ( again all signed etc)
This is all sited away from main building.... anyone have any concerns with this with regards fire risk etc, not my field of expertise.
Thanks in advance
Roundtuit  
#2 Posted : 10 July 2018 14:34:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Any comment in the sites Fire Risk Assessment or insurer correspondence?

Roundtuit  
#3 Posted : 10 July 2018 14:34:16(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Roundtuit

Any comment in the sites Fire Risk Assessment or insurer correspondence?

George_Young  
#4 Posted : 10 July 2018 14:36:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
George_Young

I wouldnt be too keen in storing fuel and oxygen so close to each other.

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chris42 on 11/07/2018(UTC)
Ian Bell2  
#5 Posted : 10 July 2018 15:14:48(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

Not from the brief info you have given. Outside, in cages away from the building - good. Presumably well ventilated? No ignition sources present? Impact protection from cars etc?

Calor will burn easily enough in air, so the oxygen won't make much difference. Highly unlikely both would leak at the same time.

Hsquared14  
#6 Posted : 11 July 2018 08:27:14(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

I understand Ian's point but I would still separate oxygen and fuels and I can foresee several scenarios in which the oxygen and the fuel could leak at the same time.

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chris42 on 11/07/2018(UTC)
Ian Bell2  
#7 Posted : 11 July 2018 10:17:11(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

The dispersion distance to below LEL will be very small for a pinhole leak as well, even allowing for oxygen being present.

Not sure what the leak frequency is for calor bottles, but if I recall correctly from when I did a DSEAR assessment for an aerosol filling company, they had failure rates of 1 in 100000. 

SO if you were to do an event tree to include leak probabilities, the result would be a very low probabilty.

Chance of leak x good ventilation x ignition source being present within LEL distance x both bottles leaking

chris42  
#8 Posted : 11 July 2018 10:38:27(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
chris42

See page 5 table of:

BCGA GUIDANCE NOTE GN2 GUIDANCE FOR THE STORAGE OF GAS CYLINDERS IN THE WORKPLACE

Suggests 3m between flammable and oxidising gases.

Also other info regarding where to site :

BCGA - CP44 - Gas storage requirements

Chris

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Hsquared14 on 11/07/2018(UTC)
Hsquared14  
#9 Posted : 11 July 2018 10:59:29(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Hsquared14

I agree with Chris.  And even if the probability of simultaneous leaks is low what about a fire situation?  Or an incident in which both fuel and oxygen cylinders get damaged?  I can't look up the guidance myself because I have no general internet access at the moment (go figure its a govt internet system so I can look at bookmarked pages but nothing new - pain in the neck, I need to look at alternative FLT forks and grabs for handling fabric - guess I won't be doing any work today!!!).  The principle has to be to keep fuels and oxidisers as far apart as possible.

Ian Bell2  
#10 Posted : 11 July 2018 11:12:04(UTC)
Rank: Super forum user
Ian Bell2

I did mention impact protection from vehicles in my 1st post. External damage or external fire is a different, but obviously valid risk to be considered.

The implication in the original post is the risks from the oxygen & calor being stored close together. As you say following standard separation guidance from suppliers is satisfactory.

The LEL distance is probably circa 2-3m for a small leak from a loose connection etc.

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